SO - Where's the SLI?
08-20-2016, 07:25 AM
#1441
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 431
Upsddown,
Thanks for taking the time to explain your logic. Sounds plausible.
Wouldn't treating letter T guys with pull/plug have the same effect as waiting to see if their coming back? Pull them from list, build the list as if they are not coming back, the reinsert by their AA colleagues?
Who knows? But I agree that they seen to be very deliberate and cautious. Really does matter, can't use the list yet anyway.
Thanks for taking the time to explain your logic. Sounds plausible.
Wouldn't treating letter T guys with pull/plug have the same effect as waiting to see if their coming back? Pull them from list, build the list as if they are not coming back, the reinsert by their AA colleagues?
Who knows? But I agree that they seen to be very deliberate and cautious. Really does matter, can't use the list yet anyway.
The issue with Letter T pilots is not the Letter T pilots themselves. It's their surrogates at the bottom of the LAA list.
The East and West made valid arguments that LAA is bringing more pilots than they had positions. To rectify that an equal number of LAA pilots must be moved to the bottom of the list (constructive notice date).
Questions is how many pilots? Until the Letter T question is answered it is a guess. Do you really see these arbs guessing about anything when by waiting a few more weeks they have the exact answer?
So think through the pull and plug scenario. It addresses the Letter T pilot positions but how do you address the LAA pilots who will be slid back to address the Letter T pilots who eventually come back? Those pilots will need to be placed behind LUS pre-constructive notice pilots. To do that you would need to reorder the list.
Pull and plug does not work with them because the arbs have no idea how many to pull.
08-20-2016, 07:39 AM
#1442
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 431
Again much of what you say sounds plausible. I had sources more on the higher up that speculated the arbitrators would come out with the final award a few weeks ago. Obviously it didn't happen.
But from what HAS leaked, and from all sides, was that they used a combination heavier LOS then status and category. The Company still has "a list". While it may not be THE list the Company makes the determination whether the arbitrators award meets their criteria in the JCBA, i.e. No cost. I would infer that if the Company has conveyed to the Arbitrators that it meets their criteria under the JCBA then I would say that if it does change then it won't be by much.
So while it is a draft award I do not believe the final award with differ by much except for errors. If waiting until Sept means it doesn't affect single FOS until the recalls decide whether to come back only gives certainty to the decision the arbitrators make when sending it out.
And so we wait.
But from what HAS leaked, and from all sides, was that they used a combination heavier LOS then status and category. The Company still has "a list". While it may not be THE list the Company makes the determination whether the arbitrators award meets their criteria in the JCBA, i.e. No cost. I would infer that if the Company has conveyed to the Arbitrators that it meets their criteria under the JCBA then I would say that if it does change then it won't be by much.
So while it is a draft award I do not believe the final award with differ by much except for errors. If waiting until Sept means it doesn't affect single FOS until the recalls decide whether to come back only gives certainty to the decision the arbitrators make when sending it out.
And so we wait.
The Company doesn't really care about anything except that they will have an award by October 1 so they can go metal neutral and hopefully pilot neutral on that date with the narrow body Airbus fleet.
Beyond that it's our fight not theirs. Albeit they may experience some collateral damage depending on the pilot responses.
If the final award will not differ from the draft award then what is keeping the separate SLI committee's from leaking their victories (particularly the NIC victor)?
08-20-2016, 07:48 AM
#1443
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,609
08-20-2016, 08:01 AM
#1444
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
WD
08-20-2016, 08:08 AM
#1445
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 431
Yes. But under entirely different circumstances. A decade ago the pilots in question didn't have over 1,000 pilots working at their own carrier on their "stand alone list" that were junior to them.
In the infamous words of George Nicolau, "every integration turns on its own facts."
In the infamous words of George Nicolau, "every integration turns on its own facts."
08-20-2016, 08:09 AM
#1446
UCH Pilot
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Position: 787
Posts: 776
Again much of what you say sounds plausible. I had sources more on the higher up that speculated the arbitrators would come out with the final award a few weeks ago. Obviously it didn't happen.
But from what HAS leaked, and from all sides, was that they used a combination heavier LOS then status and category. The Company still has "a list". While it may not be THE list the Company makes the determination whether the arbitrators award meets their criteria in the JCBA, i.e. No cost. I would infer that if the Company has conveyed to the Arbitrators that it meets their criteria under the JCBA then I would say that if it does change then it won't be by much.
So while it is a draft award I do not believe the final award with differ by much except for errors. If waiting until Sept means it doesn't affect single FOS until the recalls decide whether to come back only gives certainty to the decision the arbitrators make when sending it out.
And so we wait.
But from what HAS leaked, and from all sides, was that they used a combination heavier LOS then status and category. The Company still has "a list". While it may not be THE list the Company makes the determination whether the arbitrators award meets their criteria in the JCBA, i.e. No cost. I would infer that if the Company has conveyed to the Arbitrators that it meets their criteria under the JCBA then I would say that if it does change then it won't be by much.
So while it is a draft award I do not believe the final award with differ by much except for errors. If waiting until Sept means it doesn't affect single FOS until the recalls decide whether to come back only gives certainty to the decision the arbitrators make when sending it out.
And so we wait.
08-20-2016, 08:10 AM
#1447
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 431
We have seen this before, one group claiming land slide victory to its pilots only to find it was not at all as they claimed. I would caution all not to buy into all these claims of it's this or it's that. Managing expectations is very disappointing game when one's expectations are not met. There is no telling what that panel has done since the last of the briefs were filed with them. I will say it must be more than just checking for errors as that would have taken a few days at best and not a month. Those claiming "no nic" have no more insight than anyone else and are speaking based upon desire and not fact. The process will reveal itself here shortly and then all those who wish to claim victory can do so.
WD
WD
08-20-2016, 08:12 AM
#1448
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 431
LAA pilots have "monthly awards" that change this dynamic as well. Current awards have nothing to do with the constructive notice date. So it has no bearing on the arbs decisions.
08-20-2016, 08:47 AM
#1449
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 1,681
Yes. But under entirely different circumstances. A decade ago the pilots in question didn't have over 1,000 pilots working at their own carrier on their "stand alone list" that were junior to them.
In the infamous words of George Nicolau, "every integration turns on its sweet bribery."
In the infamous words of George Nicolau, "every integration turns on its sweet bribery."
Fixed it for U!
08-20-2016, 09:24 AM
#1450
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 431
Move on. Your life will be much better.
It's business. Don't take it so personal.
There is not a pilot at East or LAA that can't give you their own personal sad sob story of how they got screwed at some point in their career. It's the airline industry. If you want to control your own destiny your in the wrong profession.
I fail to see any evidence of "bribery". It was a battle of strategic moves guided by opposing legal teams.
As WD posted, we will have to wait to see which of those teams succeeded.
If you want to work and live in a system of ethics and morals become a monk and move to Tibet.
But absent that the American Dream is centered around taking advantage of the US legal system to advantage oneself with very little thought of one's morals. Why do you think in today's world everything involves 50 page legal documents to do anything? Handshake deals are done. In business you can only be assured of getting what you can defend and win in court, if the need arises.
There was a reason MB came into law. Because before it did there was no binding law covering integrations. That included LUS/AWA and LAA/TWA.
It's sad, but it's the truth.
The East didn't do anything different than any other successful and intelligent business person (at least the majority) would do - used the legal system to get the best they could for their investors (in this case, their pilots).
You're ****ed at the East because they used the legal system to "maybe" beat you. Ironically they didn't do anything any other pilot group wouldn't have done including your own. Had they not, it would have been a total abdication of their leadership team and a complete representative failure of their constituents.
It's business. Don't take it so personal.
There is not a pilot at East or LAA that can't give you their own personal sad sob story of how they got screwed at some point in their career. It's the airline industry. If you want to control your own destiny your in the wrong profession.
I fail to see any evidence of "bribery". It was a battle of strategic moves guided by opposing legal teams.
As WD posted, we will have to wait to see which of those teams succeeded.
If you want to work and live in a system of ethics and morals become a monk and move to Tibet.
But absent that the American Dream is centered around taking advantage of the US legal system to advantage oneself with very little thought of one's morals. Why do you think in today's world everything involves 50 page legal documents to do anything? Handshake deals are done. In business you can only be assured of getting what you can defend and win in court, if the need arises.
There was a reason MB came into law. Because before it did there was no binding law covering integrations. That included LUS/AWA and LAA/TWA.
It's sad, but it's the truth.
The East didn't do anything different than any other successful and intelligent business person (at least the majority) would do - used the legal system to get the best they could for their investors (in this case, their pilots).
You're ****ed at the East because they used the legal system to "maybe" beat you. Ironically they didn't do anything any other pilot group wouldn't have done including your own. Had they not, it would have been a total abdication of their leadership team and a complete representative failure of their constituents.
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