SO - Where's the SLI?
08-19-2016, 04:59 PM
#1432
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,238
R57,
No.
I posted early on the very limited rumored details I was told. Vendetta posted much greater detail than I heard or am willing to state.
As for the date, it has nothing to do with what's been told because the arbs have told no one the exact release date.
The date (or period) of release has to do with logic.
These arbs have been very, very diligent in every aspect of this arbitration. They have also made it clear by their previous actions that they will not have their timeline of release dictated by anyone but themselves.
Five major issues were put in front of them for decisions, NIC, Los/Category-Status, Fences, Supp CC and Letter T.
The arbitration has been going on for nearly a year and a half. Of those five issues which if any do they not have the information they need to make a decision based on complete information? When will they receive that final and complete information?
There is no way these arbs are going to be this thorough and then completely blow it in the end. For you it may not be a big deal, but as I recall, East and West wanted to move 1,000 LAA pilots to the bottom of the list because of the very issue the arbs are awaiting on final information for.
There were several major debates about the NIC award. But probably the biggest career damaging effect to the East pilots was when the snapshot was taken of the 1,500 or so furloughed East pilots who were placed on the bottom of the NIC list. Had that snapshot been taken 2 years earlier or 2 years later the outlook of these pilots careers would have been drastically different.
Now think of the similarity in the effect of the decision the arbs will make in regards to Letter T. Everyone knows less than 200 Letter T pilots are coming back but if they just get it wrong by one pilot they could ultimately destroy this one pilot's career because they made a judgement call instead of waiting another 19 days. After waiting 18 months what's another 19 days? It will still be out by October 1.
I originally thought they could release the award now and then release the final list after they got the final Letter T numbers but in retrospect I can see why they would not do that. Why would they want to open themselves up to any potential litigation between the release of the award and release of the list?
This will probably be the most vetted SLI arbitration in history. The arbs will not do something stupid at this point.
Final Letter T pilots will be known on September 8. The award will be out shortly after that.
That is all based on my logic. But who knows. This is aviation. And I'm sure more than one of you will prove how my logic is wrong.
No.
I posted early on the very limited rumored details I was told. Vendetta posted much greater detail than I heard or am willing to state.
As for the date, it has nothing to do with what's been told because the arbs have told no one the exact release date.
The date (or period) of release has to do with logic.
These arbs have been very, very diligent in every aspect of this arbitration. They have also made it clear by their previous actions that they will not have their timeline of release dictated by anyone but themselves.
Five major issues were put in front of them for decisions, NIC, Los/Category-Status, Fences, Supp CC and Letter T.
The arbitration has been going on for nearly a year and a half. Of those five issues which if any do they not have the information they need to make a decision based on complete information? When will they receive that final and complete information?
There is no way these arbs are going to be this thorough and then completely blow it in the end. For you it may not be a big deal, but as I recall, East and West wanted to move 1,000 LAA pilots to the bottom of the list because of the very issue the arbs are awaiting on final information for.
There were several major debates about the NIC award. But probably the biggest career damaging effect to the East pilots was when the snapshot was taken of the 1,500 or so furloughed East pilots who were placed on the bottom of the NIC list. Had that snapshot been taken 2 years earlier or 2 years later the outlook of these pilots careers would have been drastically different.
Now think of the similarity in the effect of the decision the arbs will make in regards to Letter T. Everyone knows less than 200 Letter T pilots are coming back but if they just get it wrong by one pilot they could ultimately destroy this one pilot's career because they made a judgement call instead of waiting another 19 days. After waiting 18 months what's another 19 days? It will still be out by October 1.
I originally thought they could release the award now and then release the final list after they got the final Letter T numbers but in retrospect I can see why they would not do that. Why would they want to open themselves up to any potential litigation between the release of the award and release of the list?
This will probably be the most vetted SLI arbitration in history. The arbs will not do something stupid at this point.
Final Letter T pilots will be known on September 8. The award will be out shortly after that.
That is all based on my logic. But who knows. This is aviation. And I'm sure more than one of you will prove how my logic is wrong.
08-19-2016, 05:32 PM
#1433
New Hire
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: Reclined
Posts: 7
R57,
No.
I posted early on the very limited rumored details I was told. Vendetta posted much greater detail than I heard or am willing to state.
As for the date, it has nothing to do with what's been told because the arbs have told no one the exact release date.
The date (or period) of release has to do with logic.
These arbs have been very, very diligent in every aspect of this arbitration. They have also made it clear by their previous actions that they will not have their timeline of release dictated by anyone but themselves.
Five major issues were put in front of them for decisions, NIC, Los/Category-Status, Fences, Supp CC and Letter T.
The arbitration has been going on for nearly a year and a half. Of those five issues which if any do they not have the information they need to make a decision based on complete information? When will they receive that final and complete information?
There is no way these arbs are going to be this thorough and then completely blow it in the end. For you it may not be a big deal, but as I recall, East and West wanted to move 1,000 LAA pilots to the bottom of the list because of the very issue the arbs are awaiting on final information for.
There were several major debates about the NIC award. But probably the biggest career damaging effect to the East pilots was when the snapshot was taken of the 1,500 or so furloughed East pilots who were placed on the bottom of the NIC list. Had that snapshot been taken 2 years earlier or 2 years later the outlook of these pilots careers would have been drastically different.
Now think of the similarity in the effect of the decision the arbs will make in regards to Letter T. Everyone knows less than 200 Letter T pilots are coming back but if they just get it wrong by one pilot they could ultimately destroy this one pilot's career because they made a judgement call instead of waiting another 19 days. After waiting 18 months what's another 19 days? It will still be out by October 1.
I originally thought they could release the award now and then release the final list after they got the final Letter T numbers but in retrospect I can see why they would not do that. Why would they want to open themselves up to any potential litigation between the release of the award and release of the list?
This will probably be the most vetted SLI arbitration in history. The arbs will not do something stupid at this point.
Final Letter T pilots will be known on September 8. The award will be out shortly after that.
That is all based on my logic. But who knows. This is aviation. And I'm sure more than one of you will prove how my logic is wrong.
No.
I posted early on the very limited rumored details I was told. Vendetta posted much greater detail than I heard or am willing to state.
As for the date, it has nothing to do with what's been told because the arbs have told no one the exact release date.
The date (or period) of release has to do with logic.
These arbs have been very, very diligent in every aspect of this arbitration. They have also made it clear by their previous actions that they will not have their timeline of release dictated by anyone but themselves.
Five major issues were put in front of them for decisions, NIC, Los/Category-Status, Fences, Supp CC and Letter T.
The arbitration has been going on for nearly a year and a half. Of those five issues which if any do they not have the information they need to make a decision based on complete information? When will they receive that final and complete information?
There is no way these arbs are going to be this thorough and then completely blow it in the end. For you it may not be a big deal, but as I recall, East and West wanted to move 1,000 LAA pilots to the bottom of the list because of the very issue the arbs are awaiting on final information for.
There were several major debates about the NIC award. But probably the biggest career damaging effect to the East pilots was when the snapshot was taken of the 1,500 or so furloughed East pilots who were placed on the bottom of the NIC list. Had that snapshot been taken 2 years earlier or 2 years later the outlook of these pilots careers would have been drastically different.
Now think of the similarity in the effect of the decision the arbs will make in regards to Letter T. Everyone knows less than 200 Letter T pilots are coming back but if they just get it wrong by one pilot they could ultimately destroy this one pilot's career because they made a judgement call instead of waiting another 19 days. After waiting 18 months what's another 19 days? It will still be out by October 1.
I originally thought they could release the award now and then release the final list after they got the final Letter T numbers but in retrospect I can see why they would not do that. Why would they want to open themselves up to any potential litigation between the release of the award and release of the list?
This will probably be the most vetted SLI arbitration in history. The arbs will not do something stupid at this point.
Final Letter T pilots will be known on September 8. The award will be out shortly after that.
That is all based on my logic. But who knows. This is aviation. And I'm sure more than one of you will prove how my logic is wrong.
Not that I disagree. I think you make some very valid points but why then would the panel issue a "draft" award? No new data/evidence/exhibits etc can be entered into the record since the arbitration proceedings have been closed. What would be the point of issuing a draft only to sit on it until the Letter T guys finally decided to come back? I admit I know next to nothing about this stuff.
08-19-2016, 07:54 PM
#1434
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 431
Not that I disagree. I think you make some very valid points but why then would the panel issue a "draft" award? No new data/evidence/exhibits etc can be entered into the record since the arbitration proceedings have been closed. What would be the point of issuing a draft only to sit on it until the Letter T guys finally decided to come back? I admit I know next to nothing about this stuff.
There are always draft awards.
What's not traditional is the allowed period for the parties to submit their responses. In this case at least one party (maybe two) asked for an extended period to be able to respond properly. The arbs being very deliberate not to make any potential litigious mistakes/actions have granted nearly every reasonable request during this process, including this one.
Where I disagree with many posters views is the arbs are handling the response period in this arbitration slightly different than in past integrations. They are very experienced and intelligent arbs. They know their job is to award a fair and equatable award and one that will stand the test of litigation.
I believe the draft award was not the final award. Why do you think the SLI committee's have remained silent about the award for nearly two months now? That's unheard of in this industry given there are three groups with numerous players.
If the draft award was the final award with no chance of it being altered then why hasn't the NIC victor of the East or West let it slip out that they have won this decade long fight? The reason appears to be that the arbs are giving each committee a chance to push, affect, their draft award before it becomes final.
I don't believe they will change their view on their decision of the NIC but I do expect some changes with LOS/Status-Category weighting and maybe even fences (A350 deferments announced after award).
The second reason for the arbs to have such a long and thorough comment period is each of the SLI committee's comments about what is wrong with the draft award is essentially each of the committee's legal briefs of what they would file a lawsuit over. The arbs will be able to address the committee's objections by tweaking the draft award or by confirming their defense of their decisions for when the award is challenged in court.
When you think it through these arbs are handling this integration unlike any previous integration but in hindsight all integrations probably should have been handled this way.
So to answer your question. The final award will likely be different than the draft award. Maybe not by much but by some amount. The extended comment period allows the committee's to possibly influence changes from the draft award and it allows the arbs to make sure they are not making any critical mistakes that could result in their final award being overturned.
08-19-2016, 09:33 PM
#1435
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 194
I thought the east had leaked that the Nic. was not used? Isn't that what you said a few weeks ago?
08-19-2016, 10:51 PM
#1436
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: A330
Posts: 1,043
08-20-2016, 01:06 AM
#1437
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Upsddown,
Thanks for taking the time to explain your logic. Sounds plausible.
Wouldn't treating letter T guys with pull/plug have the same effect as waiting to see if their coming back? Pull them from list, build the list as if they are not coming back, the reinsert by their AA colleagues?
Who knows? But I agree that they seen to be very deliberate and cautious. Really does matter, can't use the list yet anyway.
Thanks for taking the time to explain your logic. Sounds plausible.
Wouldn't treating letter T guys with pull/plug have the same effect as waiting to see if their coming back? Pull them from list, build the list as if they are not coming back, the reinsert by their AA colleagues?
Who knows? But I agree that they seen to be very deliberate and cautious. Really does matter, can't use the list yet anyway.
08-20-2016, 03:12 AM
#1438
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,238
Xanderman,
There are always draft awards.
What's not traditional is the allowed period for the parties to submit their responses. In this case at least one party (maybe two) asked for an extended period to be able to respond properly. The arbs being very deliberate not to make any potential litigious mistakes/actions have granted nearly every reasonable request during this process, including this one.
Where I disagree with many posters views is the arbs are handling the response period in this arbitration slightly different than in past integrations. They are very experienced and intelligent arbs. They know their job is to award a fair and equatable award and one that will stand the test of litigation.
I believe the draft award was not the final award. Why do you think the SLI committee's have remained silent about the award for nearly two months now? That's unheard of in this industry given there are three groups with numerous players.
If the draft award was the final award with no chance of it being altered then why hasn't the NIC victor of the East or West let it slip out that they have won this decade long fight? The reason appears to be that the arbs are giving each committee a chance to push, affect, their draft award before it becomes final.
I don't believe they will change their view on their decision of the NIC but I do expect some changes with LOS/Status-Category weighting and maybe even fences (A350 deferments announced after award).
The second reason for the arbs to have such a long and thorough comment period is each of the SLI committee's comments about what is wrong with the draft award is essentially each of the committee's legal briefs of what they would file a lawsuit over. The arbs will be able to address the committee's objections by tweaking the draft award or by confirming their defense of their decisions for when the award is challenged in court.
When you think it through these arbs are handling this integration unlike any previous integration but in hindsight all integrations probably should have been handled this way.
So to answer your question. The final award will likely be different than the draft award. Maybe not by much but by some amount. The extended comment period allows the committee's to possibly influence changes from the draft award and it allows the arbs to make sure they are not making any critical mistakes that could result in their final award being overturned.
There are always draft awards.
What's not traditional is the allowed period for the parties to submit their responses. In this case at least one party (maybe two) asked for an extended period to be able to respond properly. The arbs being very deliberate not to make any potential litigious mistakes/actions have granted nearly every reasonable request during this process, including this one.
Where I disagree with many posters views is the arbs are handling the response period in this arbitration slightly different than in past integrations. They are very experienced and intelligent arbs. They know their job is to award a fair and equatable award and one that will stand the test of litigation.
I believe the draft award was not the final award. Why do you think the SLI committee's have remained silent about the award for nearly two months now? That's unheard of in this industry given there are three groups with numerous players.
If the draft award was the final award with no chance of it being altered then why hasn't the NIC victor of the East or West let it slip out that they have won this decade long fight? The reason appears to be that the arbs are giving each committee a chance to push, affect, their draft award before it becomes final.
I don't believe they will change their view on their decision of the NIC but I do expect some changes with LOS/Status-Category weighting and maybe even fences (A350 deferments announced after award).
The second reason for the arbs to have such a long and thorough comment period is each of the SLI committee's comments about what is wrong with the draft award is essentially each of the committee's legal briefs of what they would file a lawsuit over. The arbs will be able to address the committee's objections by tweaking the draft award or by confirming their defense of their decisions for when the award is challenged in court.
When you think it through these arbs are handling this integration unlike any previous integration but in hindsight all integrations probably should have been handled this way.
So to answer your question. The final award will likely be different than the draft award. Maybe not by much but by some amount. The extended comment period allows the committee's to possibly influence changes from the draft award and it allows the arbs to make sure they are not making any critical mistakes that could result in their final award being overturned.
But from what HAS leaked, and from all sides, was that they used a combination heavier LOS then status and category. The Company still has "a list". While it may not be THE list the Company makes the determination whether the arbitrators award meets their criteria in the JCBA, i.e. No cost. I would infer that if the Company has conveyed to the Arbitrators that it meets their criteria under the JCBA then I would say that if it does change then it won't be by much.
So while it is a draft award I do not believe the final award with differ by much except for errors. If waiting until Sept means it doesn't affect single FOS until the recalls decide whether to come back only gives certainty to the decision the arbitrators make when sending it out.
And so we wait.
08-20-2016, 06:10 AM
#1439
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 1,681
I agree with the logic of releasing it after sept 8th.
This would also limit the time horizon for any screwball judge to throw another damn injunction.
I hope we can all just get integrated and move along. Continued games are not helpful for any of us.
This would also limit the time horizon for any screwball judge to throw another damn injunction.
I hope we can all just get integrated and move along. Continued games are not helpful for any of us.
08-20-2016, 07:15 AM
#1440
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 431
Did I ever say an East pilot (group) leaked the NIC? Go read my posts and please point out where I made that statement. Don't read what you want to read, read what's written.
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