eaglefly

No, I quoted 5000 "AA pilots" in the pre-merger and clearly that was in error to his assertion.

I can only understand those here based on consistency and in that respect regarding me, you've been dead nuts right on the centerline all the way to rotation. I cannot think of a single solitary post you've ever made in regards to me that was anything but unsympathetic and that's at the very best. Based on that and your statement here, fine, I'll concede you have nothing against flow-thru's per se and consider your consistent antagonism instead something personal.

I mean, I really have nothing else but that to go on.

Wiskey Driver

No worries and as far as I am concerned that part is over. Now let me address something else you have stated. We have a list here at LUS and its basically the only recognized list here. Now the east was very successful at its end run but never ever got to nor would they ever reached a point where they NIC was void. The would have kept on stealing until that reached its end and the east would be out numbered. That move in an of itself would leave a trail of destruction not only on the west but in the east as well. See at the point where they get outnumbered is where the real damage to the east begins. West pilots would then and may even still come in at take positions as line holding captains and very senior first officers. The ones that started this mess will have all left, never ever once caring about their brothers and sisters. The "well I got mine" mentality" most always comes back to haunt.

Now another thing that has stuck with me in some of your posts is your adamant dislike of the NIC. How does our slotting effect you in the least? I have never been able to understand how LUS pilots slotting even enters your radar or any AA pilots radar for that matter.

WD at AWA

eaglefly

Well, I see two lists at LUS. There is one list (the Nic) that 1700 of the pilots (West) recognize, but not recognized by perhaps 2800 other pilots (East) with 600 or so (post Nic 3rd list) unknown and probably varies from approval to disapproval to indifference. Eventually, had the merger not occurred, hypothetically due to significant higher East attrition at some point "USAPA" could be taken over by West rule and in a coup d'état, the Nic forced into implementation, sure. How many years that would take and what other forces might impact that potential are subjective. But your point that at SOME point, the West would inherit their rightful seniority as they believe it to be by the Nic is valid. As I stated before, THAT is simply one of the aspects that the arbitrators would have to quantify as it's likely to be brought up by the West. By whatever hypothetical time that would be, then few, if any of the true East would be left to suffer as all East survivors would likely be at least narrowbody captains and many widebody with no forced displacement upon them.

I guess most of the East will be gone in say 7 years and so what if a fence was put in place to resolve that (among other issues) ? Personally, I don't think fences will occur and a more "pure" slotting of pilots will happen instead. If there is a fence or fences, I'd expect them to be limited and short. Again, I don't think the Nic will be identified in pure form after the final ISL comes out, but that's just MY personal opinion. I've not come to that opinion because it might be what I want or because it is or isn't fair, just that considering that the most likely result is one where none of the three parties pure submission is adopted, it doesn't favor the pure Nic. I COULD see segments of the Nic though. You could see the final AA/U meger ISL list and not coincidentally pilot XXX to pilot XXXX might be in exact Nic order and then a segment where it is not and then another segment where it is, etc.

That I COULD see. But again, that is not the pure Nic with every name in exact order as per the latest applicable Nicolau list (or whatever is most current in arbitration considering attrition) from start to finish.


I do have disagreements with certain aspects of the Nic. I also disagree in the tactics and methods used to subvert what was agreed upon. Had it been adopted WHEN it should have, this conflict in OUR SLI wouldn't be there. Unfortunately, the reality is that is wasn't and thus now it is. Many believe that it would be a windfall for say a senior West F/O hired in say late 1997 or early 1998 to push past a legacy AA F/O straight into a RSV Group III captains position which would double his pay from merger minus 1 day. That would seem a windfall. That's just one example (one that wont affect me with my seniority though). The fact is that the inclusion or absence of the Nic DOES have a potential impact on pre-merger legacy AA pilots career expectations, but to what degree that is, is up to the arbitrators. Again, clearly as pilots we all tend to paint the situation with colors that please us most indifferent to colors others would choose. The slotting is on the radar because there are presently three lists and the LAA committee simply cannot ignore the ramifications of that fact and reality. To what degree, will be up to them.

Sliceback

My constant antagonism towards you?? I went looking for the 'constant' issue and nine days ago, after you told a guy "I saw you complaining on C&R"(paraphrased) to which he replied "I've never been on C&R" I wrote - "stop, he's on a roll." I believe the previous time might have been trying to understand how your experience of 1(?) year at AA qualifies you as an expert in AA/APA labor events or history?

At a minimum it's interesting, and perhaps troubling, that you find people holding you to a degree of accuracy antagonistic or something personal. I think most people prefer accuracy as well as honesty.

eaglefly

I think you are seeing what you WANT to see. First of all, your "antagonism" against me has occurred for at least a couple of years. It's really all I remember about you here. The recent snippet you are paraphrasing was born of another post to which I simply added. Hey, I'm not adverse to taking shots (you should know that arguably no one is more of a piñata on this forum thread then I am ), but if that's the ONLY angle member X takes toward me here, what am I supposed to conclude about them ? Many take and receive shots and criticism and I've been on both ends and accept that. I have no recollection of you being on any side of that but antagonistic.

Who ever said I was an "expert" at anything ? I've repeatedly stated that I'm simply giving an opinion and MY opinion. I've stated I've been wrong before and will be again. Heck, I was even wrong today ! Reading even THIS post only confirms your condescending beliefs about me as someone who should be seen and not heard regarding AA issues and it only reinforces my original perception of you about me. I've been at AA a lot longer then 1 year (prior to Chapter 11) and have been at AMR for well over a quarter of a century. Yes, I realize that during that time I wasn't a real AA pilot and therefore unqualified to comment on anything AMR, let alone my observations of APA over that period or intertwined issues with those at the American Airlines propeller division.

A lot of people hold me to accuracy, but not so consistently antagonistic as you. Again, if you could single out one solitary post of support for anything I've said, I'd be shocked. As far as honesty, I think I can hold my head as high as anyone here and proof of that is the level of emotion that comes back at me for doing so. Let's face it Slice (and this latest post does nothing to dispel my perceptions about you toward me), you've been "critical" of me from the beginning and FAR more then any other member. You don't post that much, but when you do it's almost like I'm your special hobby to knock down a peg or two at any opportunity. Hey, that's fine, but since that always appears to be the case, you can't blame me for at the very least believe that.

After all, just as you once again reveal in this latest post, what gives me the right to be an expert (which I'm not) on anything at AA, even though I've been here for years (plural) ? When do I get to be a real AA pilot worthy of an opinion ?

5 years ? 10 years ?

You tell me.

cactiboss

Uhhh, I'm an august '98 hire and I'm a group 3 captain.

Wiskey Driver

Again how the LUS pilots are slotted are of no concern to the pilots of AA just like how the AA pilots are slotted are of no concern to LUS pilots. Now what is of a concern to everyone is how LUS and AA are slotted but that is it my friend.

WD at AWA

FreighterGuyNow

The cross over would have occurred in roughly 2021 when 1200 legacy US Airways pilots would equal 1200 legacy America West ones.

So no, most of the East list will not be gone in 7 years and no (again) the West was never going to " rule " .

The East list is static at 3500 the West at 1400 yielding a 2021 demographic of 1200/ 1200 legacy and 2600 post merger hires who would, assuming a cohesive voting block, be the largest contingent.

flyinawa

Shhhhh. Why use facts when the crew room "I heard" gossip is so much more fun to spread? It's become like Good Morning America. Way more entertainment than news.

Spoiler

My only question is this:
How can MB be applied retroactively to the East West issue? I am prone to think that has to be resolved first and then MB applied to the LAA and LUS merge.
Unless of course those parties agree to drop the NIC and allow MB to be applied.