cactiboss

what part of "they are junior to all pilots east and west" don't you get? This is your logic falls flat on its face, those pilots are 3rd listers and are junior to all original west pilots, yet here you claim they have better career expectation. What about when new hires get assigned phoenix, they have different career expectations huh? how can they be re-hired when they already worked for usairwAys?

The premise is that the east pilots can't fairly represent the west pilots, thats why the west has a seat, read the award.

eaglefly

Jeez.....

Aren't those 3rd listers on a different pre-merger list and if not, they're on the West list and not both ?

Look, again *sigh* I'm saying these are simply considerations that will have to be confronted and quantified and I'm not arguing the SLI like you, nor stomping my feet with certainties. I don't understand why you're so worked up since you're so certain of your assertions.


If you'll remember, I DID correctly believe the West would get a seat, so why would I need to read it again ?

eaglefly

Perhaps, but not likely at the expense of LAA pilots. I think this SLI's primary concern is not to place the interests of any single group of the three as paramount, but instead craft the most fair and equitable overall list considering this is not just a merger of U/AWA anymore, but one with an entity twice the size yet again of the previously us combined U/AWA group.

cactiboss

Have I ever even hinted that anything should be at the expense of American pilots? You on the other end claim the west pilots should pay and suffer in this sli for what the east has done.

eaglefly

Please. Cacti, I've made no such claims. I've simply acknowledged that certain realities of this merger will have to confronted and dealt with to get through the SLI as they apply to the respective pilot groups. The fact is ANY action favoring one group impacts the others and in regards to the Nic or determining realistic pre-merger career expectations, impact to others must be considered. I have nothing against West pilots and certainly wish no one "suffering". It's easy to misinterpret my comments when emotion muddies interpretation. The same thing happened when I criticized USAPA for subverting an arbitration award (successfully). I was accused of hating all East pilots and cheered by some West pilots. Personally, I expect no windfalls in this SLI myself, so I have no personal gain motive for my opinions.

shoelsch

I second cacti's question regarding new hires. If a new hire is junior and is assigned PHX, he/she (for now) does not have the ability to bid 330 or 190 CA, even if on a combined third list they could hold it. Does that mean the said new hire must immediately lower his/her "career expectations" as they compare to a new hire that was assigned PHL? FFT

alfaromeo

So are you saying that at the time of the merger, American pilots had an expectation of being in bankruptcy forever? These idiotic arguments about future expectations are all a bunch of self serving crap. You are all making up scenarios about the future of other pilots simply to make your own situation look better by comparison. These self serving arguments have been blown apart by arbitrators for decades yet pilots continue to make the same tired arguments. Everyone here should first go read at least 15 arbitration results before making these ridiculous claims. Come back when you have at least a shred of clue before making yourselves look foolish. Or maybe you want another arbitration panel to call your arguments fatally defective.

At least attempt to learn a lesson from history.

eaglefly

Traditionally, different segments of pilots are treated differently in SLI's. In the final slotting, it would likely mean said new-hires would still be junior to all West pilots who had no pre-merger International wide body expectations. West pilots with no pre-merger International wide body expectations wouldn't likely be denied those opportunities, just MAY be slotted differently with other more senior pilots on the LAA and/or East side who did have those expectations pre-merger because of it unless fences are used to mitigate inequalities and/or to preserve pre-merger career expectations. I'm not saying West pilots won't have future International wide body options, just that since they didn't have them pre-merger, the arbitrators will have to quantify that issue and incorporate that as part of their final hybrid ISL.

It's another reason arbitrators like to avoid fences and if that's the case, the more "pure" way to complete the ISL means different slotting.

eaglefly

Huh ?

I've read several and have the UAL/CAL award in my hot little hands as we speak (I've been through it perhaps a dozen times). Obviously, you're in denial. The concept of pre-merger career expectations will be one of the major factors argued in this SLI. To what degree the arbitrators assign weight to it is anyone's guess. I'm sorry this upsets you as it appears to do.

Surprise

I can't believe there is any third lister who would expect to come out ahead of any native West pilot. So I also can't believe this would need to be a consideration. This seems to be so obvious that it should be settled.

Sometimes eaglefly is right, but this time ain't one of them.