AAL submits proposal
11-27-2014, 08:35 AM
#353
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: Airbus button pusher
Posts: 2,448
FYI if it was an increase of 50k multiply that times 14k pilots and you get a 700 million increase in the contract, and we know that ain't true. Canoe pilot is a 3rd lister FO , so that means 50k would be a well below average gain for the majority of the pilot group hypothetically speaking.
The company has touted a increase of contract value over the MOU, but that's all smoke and mirrors as they extended the duration by a year.
The company has touted a increase of contract value over the MOU, but that's all smoke and mirrors as they extended the duration by a year.
11-27-2014, 09:05 AM
#355
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: Airbus button pusher
Posts: 2,448
The point was he is on the bottom half of pay in the total pilot group as he isn't topped out on the pay scale and most likely isn't a captain. See the rough mental math post, thanks.
Yes voters be gettin' defensive
11-27-2014, 09:29 AM
#356
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: AA A320
Posts: 1,624
I'm not a definite yes voter. I guess because I'm not chanting NO NO NO; by default that makes me a yes voter in your book
I would rather wait to see the final offer before banging my war drum. Let the process run it's course.
I would rather wait to see the final offer before banging my war drum. Let the process run it's course.
11-27-2014, 09:51 AM
#357
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 29
I think many of those that don't see an issue with a hard 2 hour call out number are still thinking of reserve in terms of regional carriers. Meaning that they see reserve as a fairly short duration thing twice in their careers, once as F/O and once as Captain.
At the majors it can, and most likely will be a significant portion of their 30 or so years at the airline. The reality of it is assuming they progress through the fleets and seats (f/o, Capt, narrowbody, widebody etc) reserve can frequently account for 50% of your time at the airline when all is said and done. Toss in another downturn, which is guaranteed to happen, that time spent on reserve can account for 80% of your time at a major.
Now for those that don't mind living right smack in the middle of a congested metropolitan area, spending 15 years on reserve with a "Must be in the aircraft seat in 2 hours" might not be too bad. For most of us that prefer to live somewhere farther away from the constant traffic noise and hellish traffic everytime you want to go to the quickymart, not so much.
When thinking about such things like call out times, go ahead and figure 15 years out of 30 as a reserve....maybe you will be one of the lucky ones and only see 5 years, but you also have an equal chance to be one of the unlucky ones and see 25 years as a reserve. We have guys retiring now with 30+ years and can count on one hand the number of years they held a block. Don't be gullible enough to think that it cannot happen to you, all you need to do is take a quick look at the history of every major out there right now to see how quick you can go from blockholding with weekends off to sitting reserve every weekend and holiday for years on end.
Another thing to remember. In the last 14 years my drive time to the airport has increased by about 20 minutes on average to the airport, from 30 minutes to 50 minutes, and I have not moved my residence. City growth has turned the small 2 lane country roads from the airport to my house into congested 4 lane start and stop obstacle courses. When I moved here 1 hour max was all that was needed in rush hour, now if I hit it on a bad day it can easily take 1:30 to the lot, then toss in another 15 mins waiting on the bus, plus the 10 minute bus ride, even if I go directly to the aircraft from the bus I will pop a hard 2 hour call out. And that was if I was sitting in full uniform at the house waiting for the phone to ring 14 hours a day.
At the majors it can, and most likely will be a significant portion of their 30 or so years at the airline. The reality of it is assuming they progress through the fleets and seats (f/o, Capt, narrowbody, widebody etc) reserve can frequently account for 50% of your time at the airline when all is said and done. Toss in another downturn, which is guaranteed to happen, that time spent on reserve can account for 80% of your time at a major.
Now for those that don't mind living right smack in the middle of a congested metropolitan area, spending 15 years on reserve with a "Must be in the aircraft seat in 2 hours" might not be too bad. For most of us that prefer to live somewhere farther away from the constant traffic noise and hellish traffic everytime you want to go to the quickymart, not so much.
When thinking about such things like call out times, go ahead and figure 15 years out of 30 as a reserve....maybe you will be one of the lucky ones and only see 5 years, but you also have an equal chance to be one of the unlucky ones and see 25 years as a reserve. We have guys retiring now with 30+ years and can count on one hand the number of years they held a block. Don't be gullible enough to think that it cannot happen to you, all you need to do is take a quick look at the history of every major out there right now to see how quick you can go from blockholding with weekends off to sitting reserve every weekend and holiday for years on end.
Another thing to remember. In the last 14 years my drive time to the airport has increased by about 20 minutes on average to the airport, from 30 minutes to 50 minutes, and I have not moved my residence. City growth has turned the small 2 lane country roads from the airport to my house into congested 4 lane start and stop obstacle courses. When I moved here 1 hour max was all that was needed in rush hour, now if I hit it on a bad day it can easily take 1:30 to the lot, then toss in another 15 mins waiting on the bus, plus the 10 minute bus ride, even if I go directly to the aircraft from the bus I will pop a hard 2 hour call out. And that was if I was sitting in full uniform at the house waiting for the phone to ring 14 hours a day.
Last edited by Sweatsock; 11-27-2014 at 10:04 AM.
11-27-2014, 10:08 AM
#358
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Perhaps we should slide a blank sheet across the table to Doug, Scott and Jerry and let them fill in the blanks on what OTHER contractual items we have that they (and apparently some of the pilots) don't consider "concessions" ?
I mean, if we're just going to negotiate against ourselves and give things away, why not ?
Man, some of you guys must get clobbered at car dealerships.
I mean, if we're just going to negotiate against ourselves and give things away, why not ?
Man, some of you guys must get clobbered at car dealerships.
11-27-2014, 10:37 AM
#359
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: HUD cripple.
Posts: 314
I think many of those that don't see an issue with a hard 2 hour call out number are still thinking of reserve in terms of regional carriers. Meaning that they see reserve as a fairly short duration thing twice in their careers, once as F/O and once as Captain.
At the majors it can, and most likely will be a significant portion of their 30 or so years at the airline. The reality of it is assuming they progress through the fleets and seats (f/o, Capt, narrowbody, widebody etc) reserve can frequently account for 50% of your time at the airline when all is said and done. Toss in another downturn, which is guaranteed to happen, that time spent on reserve can account for 80% of your time at a major.
Now for those that don't mind living right smack in the middle of a congested metropolitan area, spending 15 years on reserve with a "Must be in the aircraft seat in 2 hours" might not be too bad. For most of us that prefer to live somewhere farther away from the constant traffic noise and hellish traffic everytime you want to go to the quickymart, not so much.
When thinking about such things like call out times, go ahead and figure 15 years out of 30 as a reserve....maybe you will be one of the lucky ones and only see 5 years, but you also have an equal chance to be one of the unlucky ones and see 25 years as a reserve. We have guys retiring now with 30+ years and can count on one hand the number of years they held a block. Don't be gullible enough to think that it cannot happen to you, all you need to do is take a quick look at the history of every major out there right now to see how quick you can go from blockholding with weekends off to sitting reserve every weekend and holiday for years on end.
Another thing to remember. In the last 14 years my drive time to the airport has increased by about 20 minutes on average to the airport, from 30 minutes to 50 minutes, and I have not moved my residence. City growth has turned the small 2 lane country roads from the airport to my house into congested 4 lane start and stop obstacle courses. When I moved here 1 hour max was all that was needed in rush hour, now if I hit it on a bad day it can easily take 1:30 to the lot, then toss in another 15 mins waiting on the bus, plus the 10 minute bus ride, even if I go directly to the aircraft from the bus I will pop a hard 2 hour call out. And that was if I was sitting in full uniform at the house waiting for the phone to ring 14 hours a day.
At the majors it can, and most likely will be a significant portion of their 30 or so years at the airline. The reality of it is assuming they progress through the fleets and seats (f/o, Capt, narrowbody, widebody etc) reserve can frequently account for 50% of your time at the airline when all is said and done. Toss in another downturn, which is guaranteed to happen, that time spent on reserve can account for 80% of your time at a major.
Now for those that don't mind living right smack in the middle of a congested metropolitan area, spending 15 years on reserve with a "Must be in the aircraft seat in 2 hours" might not be too bad. For most of us that prefer to live somewhere farther away from the constant traffic noise and hellish traffic everytime you want to go to the quickymart, not so much.
When thinking about such things like call out times, go ahead and figure 15 years out of 30 as a reserve....maybe you will be one of the lucky ones and only see 5 years, but you also have an equal chance to be one of the unlucky ones and see 25 years as a reserve. We have guys retiring now with 30+ years and can count on one hand the number of years they held a block. Don't be gullible enough to think that it cannot happen to you, all you need to do is take a quick look at the history of every major out there right now to see how quick you can go from blockholding with weekends off to sitting reserve every weekend and holiday for years on end.
Another thing to remember. In the last 14 years my drive time to the airport has increased by about 20 minutes on average to the airport, from 30 minutes to 50 minutes, and I have not moved my residence. City growth has turned the small 2 lane country roads from the airport to my house into congested 4 lane start and stop obstacle courses. When I moved here 1 hour max was all that was needed in rush hour, now if I hit it on a bad day it can easily take 1:30 to the lot, then toss in another 15 mins waiting on the bus, plus the 10 minute bus ride, even if I go directly to the aircraft from the bus I will pop a hard 2 hour call out. And that was if I was sitting in full uniform at the house waiting for the phone to ring 14 hours a day.
I live 23 miles from the employee lot in DFW, at the wrong time of day, I'm probably not going to make it from phone call, to ops in two hours.
Another problem with this deal for me, is combining domestic and international divisions. I have no desire to do international. You should be able to stay on one side or the other by your choice. The whole thing is BS, there shouldn't be any concessions, period.
11-27-2014, 10:38 AM
#360
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Right Seat
Posts: 1,458
the callout is broken, people abuse it constantly. You can't tell me that there is any reason to take 3 hours to get to the airport unless you are out of base. People are sitting reserve out of base and trying to game the system. If you live in base 2 hours is more than enough time. Going to 2 hours may be a minor concession but it's one i'm willing to make for 50 grand.
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