AAL submits proposal
11-14-2014, 07:48 AM
#191
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I think they are keeping the negotiating and scope portions separate. I hope the scope committee is going to give the BOD a separate recommendation than those given by the negotiating committee. We'll know in a few hours.
11-14-2014, 07:48 AM
#192
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 736
Jumping to conclusions. Nobody knows what the counter entails...until later today.
11-14-2014, 07:56 AM
#193
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Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: 777 CAP
Posts: 771
Did the APA give you guys any scope comparison numbers?
If not, here are some UAL basics.
-80% of Express flying must be less than 900 sm.
-Max Number of allowed 50 seat RJs 90% of mainline narrowbodies.
-Max Express hours between hubs 5% of mainline hours between hubs.
-Max number of 70/76 seat RJs is 255 of which 153 can be 76 seat plane.
-IF New Small Narrowbody Fleet is added:
76-seat fleet can be increased at a 1:1.25 ratio of mainline planes added up to a maximum of 223 76 seat RJs and a total of 325 70/76 seat planes.
For reference our narrow body fleet is 529 planes out of 691 total. Currently have 60 76 seat and 153 70 seat Express planes.
If not, here are some UAL basics.
-80% of Express flying must be less than 900 sm.
-Max Number of allowed 50 seat RJs 90% of mainline narrowbodies.
-Max Express hours between hubs 5% of mainline hours between hubs.
-Max number of 70/76 seat RJs is 255 of which 153 can be 76 seat plane.
-IF New Small Narrowbody Fleet is added:
76-seat fleet can be increased at a 1:1.25 ratio of mainline planes added up to a maximum of 223 76 seat RJs and a total of 325 70/76 seat planes.
For reference our narrow body fleet is 529 planes out of 691 total. Currently have 60 76 seat and 153 70 seat Express planes.
11-14-2014, 08:24 AM
#195
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Save on training cost.
11-14-2014, 08:33 AM
#196
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11-14-2014, 08:38 AM
#197
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Good idea Monkeyfly.... Knowing your peers is the only way to make your leadership do one better.
DAL:
-85% of all DCI legs must be under 900SM
-90% of all DCI must originate or end in a hub (legs, not Block Hrs.)
Max. 50 seat RJ's is 125 (343 at ratification)
Max. 51-70 seat RJ's is 102
Max 71-76 seat RJ's is 153-223 (scaled up as 319/717's added AND 50 seat RJ's parked)
Total RJ's 450 end state
In 2012 DAL/DCI domestic block hour split was 54/46.
In 2015 DAL/DCI block hour split will be 64/36
Contractual maximum DCI will be 39%.
Mainline minimum will be 61%.
Current domestic fleet schedule for end of 2015 is 687 mainline and 420 RJ's.
50's - 125
70's - 102
76's - 193
DAL:
-85% of all DCI legs must be under 900SM
-90% of all DCI must originate or end in a hub (legs, not Block Hrs.)
Max. 50 seat RJ's is 125 (343 at ratification)
Max. 51-70 seat RJ's is 102
Max 71-76 seat RJ's is 153-223 (scaled up as 319/717's added AND 50 seat RJ's parked)
Total RJ's 450 end state
In 2012 DAL/DCI domestic block hour split was 54/46.
In 2015 DAL/DCI block hour split will be 64/36
Contractual maximum DCI will be 39%.
Mainline minimum will be 61%.
Current domestic fleet schedule for end of 2015 is 687 mainline and 420 RJ's.
50's - 125
70's - 102
76's - 193
11-14-2014, 08:40 AM
#198
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Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
To all : Again, as I've stated it doesn't matter who Roadkill66 is (I've deliberately referred to him both as a pilot and NOT a pilot to highlight his chamelonism) and his message sucks even without a mack truck. APA today will submit a counter to Parker's feeble proposal and if rejected, arbitration is the likely path as it should be. Personally, I had no illusions about Parker and it's true the majority of AA pilots agreed to the MTA/JCBA provisions and process. This is not section 6, but Parkers proposal and duration is essentially making it a section 6 offer (that's just but one aspect of its con), but a lowball one. So in light of that, I still think we're better off taking what we accepted via arbitration vs. an AWFUL section 6 wannabe and keeping scope the same.
WE will get substantial pay improvements in 2016, no mixing of domestic and international (unless cost improvements for the company are recouped elsewhere by the pilots), no obscene health care taxes (also without corresponding improvements elsewhere), no scope changes and PARKER will get cheaper labor and the former angry, disillusioned employees the old AA had to try and compete with Delta in both good times and bad, so eventually after his financial honeymoon is over we all will likely lose. When it does come time for section 6, we'll have the good old antagonism on steroids relationship AA has always been known for (and whose inferiority has been a resulting byproduct of) to work with. Parker showed his cards and there's now no doubt the new boss is the same as the old. That cannot be changed no matter what at this point as that bridge was bombed.
My guess is they'll want an extension to "consider" the counter and that should be one week maximum. I think they'll then offer some minor sweeteners and then it will be up to APA to decide to accept or reject with no more dancing. Parker gets to choose which AA he wants - a new one or the old one. I know Anderson is hoping for the old one. They'll kill us in the future and they should. Parker may indeed get something (and may not even care) with a crap deal, but he also gives something up and what he gives up may be a bigger component then he thought. Again, I hear from others that "Parker doesn't care". Perhaps, but if that's true, he's stupider then I thought. In the future what he gives up is likely the key ingredient to success and the affected employees will remember how he reneged at this critical juncture and failed to live up to his claims and promises.
WE will get substantial pay improvements in 2016, no mixing of domestic and international (unless cost improvements for the company are recouped elsewhere by the pilots), no obscene health care taxes (also without corresponding improvements elsewhere), no scope changes and PARKER will get cheaper labor and the former angry, disillusioned employees the old AA had to try and compete with Delta in both good times and bad, so eventually after his financial honeymoon is over we all will likely lose. When it does come time for section 6, we'll have the good old antagonism on steroids relationship AA has always been known for (and whose inferiority has been a resulting byproduct of) to work with. Parker showed his cards and there's now no doubt the new boss is the same as the old. That cannot be changed no matter what at this point as that bridge was bombed.
My guess is they'll want an extension to "consider" the counter and that should be one week maximum. I think they'll then offer some minor sweeteners and then it will be up to APA to decide to accept or reject with no more dancing. Parker gets to choose which AA he wants - a new one or the old one. I know Anderson is hoping for the old one. They'll kill us in the future and they should. Parker may indeed get something (and may not even care) with a crap deal, but he also gives something up and what he gives up may be a bigger component then he thought. Again, I hear from others that "Parker doesn't care". Perhaps, but if that's true, he's stupider then I thought. In the future what he gives up is likely the key ingredient to success and the affected employees will remember how he reneged at this critical juncture and failed to live up to his claims and promises.
I am looking to move up in life via a career change. Walmart has a greeter position open. No fleebag hotels. Close in employee parking. No reserve buckets. Christmas off! And no drug tests, so I'll be like a CEO!
11-14-2014, 09:05 AM
#199
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Posts: 403
Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but this is probably exactly what the company wants. They want us to reject their offer, and IMHO, is why:
-Arbitration will result in a better deal for them to include:
1. Lower Pay Rates (rate in the proposal are higher than arbitrated rates. But this was not the real reason for higher rates)
2. No profit sharing (with the proposal and and subsequent negotiations related to the proposal, PS is on the table. With the arbitrator it's not...easy way to end that option now and on subsequent contracts)
3. Worst work rules for us, meaning best work rules for them in the industry per the MOU
4. Pay Rates, the REAL REASON, this time their "Act of Valor". They look like the good guys to the shareholders, Wall St, the government, media, and the public. We look like the greedy, self centered, me first "UNION" (a bad word now days) that turned down the highest "pay" in the indusrty, now causing all the problem at the New AA. Though it's not a big deal in our minds, it emboldens management and make them harder to work with and no one cares about our plight.
5. They lose nothing. They already knew what they were going to get with the MOU. They are taking a stab at more cause they can. We lose the momentum of the times, profit sharing, QOL.
6. They get billions in profits and disgruntled pilot group. Guess what, the billions will still be there and our disgruntled group will still get the same...nothing. Well except a few will push it too far and get fired.
I am totally against the proposal. I have no fantasy that our counter will be accepted (cause they never wanted a deal in the first place...they already had one. They were just playing alone as the MOU said it had to be) in any form. They knew our Achilles Heel was scope and they went straight for it. I think it's time we stop playing forum negotiatior and get ready for a few more tough years. Then when time to negotiate for real, I am sure the profits will not be there magically and we argue again for years on end.
Side not: NEGOTIATONG ON A PUBLIC FORUM IS STUPID.
-Arbitration will result in a better deal for them to include:
1. Lower Pay Rates (rate in the proposal are higher than arbitrated rates. But this was not the real reason for higher rates)
2. No profit sharing (with the proposal and and subsequent negotiations related to the proposal, PS is on the table. With the arbitrator it's not...easy way to end that option now and on subsequent contracts)
3. Worst work rules for us, meaning best work rules for them in the industry per the MOU
4. Pay Rates, the REAL REASON, this time their "Act of Valor". They look like the good guys to the shareholders, Wall St, the government, media, and the public. We look like the greedy, self centered, me first "UNION" (a bad word now days) that turned down the highest "pay" in the indusrty, now causing all the problem at the New AA. Though it's not a big deal in our minds, it emboldens management and make them harder to work with and no one cares about our plight.
5. They lose nothing. They already knew what they were going to get with the MOU. They are taking a stab at more cause they can. We lose the momentum of the times, profit sharing, QOL.
6. They get billions in profits and disgruntled pilot group. Guess what, the billions will still be there and our disgruntled group will still get the same...nothing. Well except a few will push it too far and get fired.
I am totally against the proposal. I have no fantasy that our counter will be accepted (cause they never wanted a deal in the first place...they already had one. They were just playing alone as the MOU said it had to be) in any form. They knew our Achilles Heel was scope and they went straight for it. I think it's time we stop playing forum negotiatior and get ready for a few more tough years. Then when time to negotiate for real, I am sure the profits will not be there magically and we argue again for years on end.
Side not: NEGOTIATONG ON A PUBLIC FORUM IS STUPID.
Last edited by drinksonme; 11-14-2014 at 09:16 AM.
11-14-2014, 09:17 AM
#200
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Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 581
Oh I get it. Morally JUSTIFIABLE indignation? Oh, I am a pilot. Oh, and I just saw the latest offer from the company. Oh, and I DID crunch the numbers. I don't care what the management from the other airlines think. They don't run the company I work for.
I had a Southwest pilot on the jumpsuit the other day. They are not happy with their management, FYI. (United isn't having a lovefest with theirs, either).
If you are a pilot here, YOU DON'T GET IT. Because the "company" doesn't come down from their office and lick the ground you walk on you have a "morally JUSTIFIED indignation" legal case. The package the company offered is a GREAT package. It's sad to see the same ole union mentality used at APA that is used at ALPA. In all my years as a pilot I have NEVER seen pilots use reason and logic in their "business" analysis of their competitive situation. MAINLY because they compete with each other.
Go ahead and use that justification in your "jihadi crusade". You'll be alone.
I had a Southwest pilot on the jumpsuit the other day. They are not happy with their management, FYI. (United isn't having a lovefest with theirs, either).
If you are a pilot here, YOU DON'T GET IT. Because the "company" doesn't come down from their office and lick the ground you walk on you have a "morally JUSTIFIED indignation" legal case. The package the company offered is a GREAT package. It's sad to see the same ole union mentality used at APA that is used at ALPA. In all my years as a pilot I have NEVER seen pilots use reason and logic in their "business" analysis of their competitive situation. MAINLY because they compete with each other.
Go ahead and use that justification in your "jihadi crusade". You'll be alone.
Here is what I get:
I have lived on half of my original pay for over a decade. This was my choice because I stayed - I could have quit. Still the dogma from the company at the time was, "We're all in this together."
I lost my retirement with no mathematical way to get it back. The company did not give me the twenty years that I worked for it in exchange for the millions that they took from me. Not my choice. But,"We're all in this together."
Now, when things are good and every other airline is participating in profit sharing with employees, suddenly management is not interested in the "We're all in it together" dogma.
One must contemplate the reasoning behind this. When times are bad- we get less. When times are good - we should get more. Simple- for honest folks. Delta plus 3% is a not at all, thinly veiled attempt to get me to take less.
This is what disappointment looks like. And yes, this IS what morality looks like. I am not surprised with managements behavior but some here had thought that this was a new day. During the bad times one could believe that management was so adversarial because they had to be to save the airline. Today management makes a choice to follow Delta's lead or go the other way. There's a reason why Delta will always be the best. While I don't expect a "love fest" I do expect honesty and respect and I will say it, morality. It is time that we call this type of greed exactly what it is- immoral. So this is a disappointment on so many levels. From now own do not put words in my mouth. These things are in writing.
Last edited by justjack; 11-14-2014 at 09:33 AM.
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