Nic ...
09-28-2014, 09:24 AM
#631
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
No, you are wrong. East pilots that were hired at America West Airlines were hired before AWA purchased US Airways. The US Airways guys were on the street, furloughed, with applications out at many airlines. A few were fortunate enough to be picked up by AWA in 2004, a year before AWA bought U. These east pilots were street hires, went through the entire training program and placed on the seniority list according to their AWA date of hire.
When the TA was written in 2005 it allowed furloughed pilots from either airline going to the other seniority list. In 2007, as costs were out of control at the new US Airways we could no longer compete in the leisure markets and closed a few bases, LAS being one of them. The furloughed west pilots were given the option of flying in the east system- no training required since we are on the same certificate. These west pilots kept their AWA DOH because USAPA was pushing for DOH system wide.
Now, MDA pilots (like you) and a few third list pilots are hoping for a relative merge but these west guys are kind of a fly in your ointment- because their placement on the east seniority list is preserved through the TA which was agreed to in 2005- an agreement you are saying no longer exists.
As I have said, you have an uphill battle with arbitrators. This is just one example why.
When the TA was written in 2005 it allowed furloughed pilots from either airline going to the other seniority list. In 2007, as costs were out of control at the new US Airways we could no longer compete in the leisure markets and closed a few bases, LAS being one of them. The furloughed west pilots were given the option of flying in the east system- no training required since we are on the same certificate. These west pilots kept their AWA DOH because USAPA was pushing for DOH system wide.
Now, MDA pilots (like you) and a few third list pilots are hoping for a relative merge but these west guys are kind of a fly in your ointment- because their placement on the east seniority list is preserved through the TA which was agreed to in 2005- an agreement you are saying no longer exists.
As I have said, you have an uphill battle with arbitrators. This is just one example why.
I guess if you tell you a lie long enough it becomes truth.
For some US guys, going to AWA was the worst mistake they could make.
Costs weren't out of control. LAS was part of a business plan that could not work with the higher FUEL COSTS.
09-28-2014, 09:36 AM
#632
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: A320
Posts: 225
Right, in R57 land Southwest never grew to 300 flights a day in LAS and Spirit folded up the their tent and went home...
09-28-2014, 09:44 AM
#633
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
09-28-2014, 10:59 AM
#634
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
That was true initially, then in June 2013 USAPA filed a grievance to move the new hire west furloughed pilots up the east list with their west date of hire. So now you have a west pilot on the east list flying 330s and are block holding pilots on the small bus. While their brother and sisters on the west are 100 pilots from the bottom of their list, flying weekends and holidays. They are around 80% on the east list and about 97% on the west list. If we merge the 3 lists on a percentage basis how can they go in front of the west pilots who were initially senior to them? any help with that question? Thanks
09-28-2014, 11:01 AM
#635
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
09-28-2014, 11:04 AM
#636
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
09-28-2014, 11:43 AM
#637
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: 767 capt
Posts: 42
No, you are wrong. East pilots that were hired at America West Airlines were hired before AWA purchased US Airways. The US Airways guys were on the street, furloughed, with applications out at many airlines. A few were fortunate enough to be picked up by AWA in 2004, a year before AWA bought U. These east pilots were street hires, went through the entire training program and placed on the seniority list according to their AWA date of hire.
When the TA was written in 2005 it allowed furloughed pilots from either airline going to the other seniority list. In 2007, as costs were out of control at the new US Airways we could no longer compete in the leisure markets and closed a few bases, LAS being one of them. The furloughed west pilots were given the option of flying in the east system- no training required since we are on the same certificate. These west pilots kept their AWA DOH because USAPA was pushing for DOH system wide.
Now, MDA pilots (like you) and a few third list pilots are hoping for a relative merge but these west guys are kind of a fly in your ointment- because their placement on the east seniority list is preserved through the TA which was agreed to in 2005- an agreement you are saying no longer exists.
As I have said, you have an uphill battle with arbitrators. This is just one example why.
When the TA was written in 2005 it allowed furloughed pilots from either airline going to the other seniority list. In 2007, as costs were out of control at the new US Airways we could no longer compete in the leisure markets and closed a few bases, LAS being one of them. The furloughed west pilots were given the option of flying in the east system- no training required since we are on the same certificate. These west pilots kept their AWA DOH because USAPA was pushing for DOH system wide.
Now, MDA pilots (like you) and a few third list pilots are hoping for a relative merge but these west guys are kind of a fly in your ointment- because their placement on the east seniority list is preserved through the TA which was agreed to in 2005- an agreement you are saying no longer exists.
As I have said, you have an uphill battle with arbitrators. This is just one example why.
09-28-2014, 01:22 PM
#638
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 147
09-28-2014, 03:23 PM
#639
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Yes, our side agreed to binding arbitration with the condition that the outcome would not be used without a JCBA. The west wanted that provision along with the separate ratification of the JCBA. They thought they would get screwed, and would use it to delay. We never got a JCBA, and we agreed to a the MOU which nullified all previous agreements. The Nic is still out there, and may still be used. What's so hard about that?
09-28-2014, 03:30 PM
#640
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
We've been over this before. I guess you still don't get averaging. US had higher CASM and PRASM than AWA. We had what, 2-3 times the ASMs, so when you AVERAGE that, the CASM for the new airline is higher than what the west had. That doesn't mean that it cost more to fly from LAS-MCO than it did before. That is directly from Kirby. LAS was always marginally profitable for AWA, when fuel shot up it became unprofitable.
You guys weren't SWA. But even if you had been on par with them, even they didn't keep up their historical growth.
Don't take my word, take the AWA 2004 10-K. You guys like to say that Doug was blowing smoke, but the 10-k lays it out and blowing smoke on that can send you to prison. If you need help finding it, let me know, but here's a snippet:
"Price competition occurs on a market-by-market basis through price discounts, changes in pricing structures,
fare matching, target promotions and frequent flyer initiatives. Most airlines will quickly match price reductions
in a particular market and certain airlines have in the past engaged in retaliatory activities, including steep pricing
discounts in certain markets and termination of alliance agreements, in response to changes in our pricing structure.
Our ability to compete on the basis of price is limited by our fixed costs and depends on our ability to maintain
low operating costs. Our principal competitor, Southwest Airlines, and certain other low cost carriers have lower
operating cost structures than we do. In addition, the consolidation of existing carriers, the entry of additional carriers
including new low cost carriers, the creation of low fare airline divisions by several major airlines and the revision
of traditional pricing structures by our competitors in many of our markets (as well as increased services by
established carriers) has resulted in increased pressure on our pricing. For additional discussion of industry
competition and related government regulation, see “Risk Factors Relating to America West and Industry Related
Risks — The airline industry and the markets we serve are highly competitive and we may be unable to compete
effectively against carriers with substantially greater resources or lower cost structures” and, generally,
“Government Regulations.”"
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