Nic ...
09-23-2014, 02:40 PM
#583
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
I only wish I had some capability to speak words to an arbitrator and have them comply. I would be rich. Instead, the only thing you can do is speak the truth and offer reasonable solutions to the problems inherent to each integration. There is no "one size fits all" solution, but there are principles that have been accepted for years and years.
One of those principles is that once the merger is closed, each pilot group's expectations are altered by the merger. One management team, one customer base, one revenue stream. Which pilots fly which routes and which bases grow and shrink are all irrelevant to management. They just move resources around to match their new network. Therefore, there is no way to separate out the results from each group.
That is why arbitrations back for years and years recognize that fact. It is not some magic concept that is whispered into someone's ear. It is just common sense and it is the truth. You can argue with me until you are blue in the face and it won't change the way the arbitrators view this. The worst thing a pilot group can do is to believe their own BS. That is what the East pilots did; they believed their own self serving propaganda and couldn't reconcile the fact that the entire rest of the world did not see things that way. They then blew up their careers for the better part of a decade.
So if it makes you feel better to believe that there is some way to separate out the financial results of the East and West in the last 7 years then believe that. Pretty much the entire rest of the world does not believe that. If you spend much time trying to convince the arbitrators of this self serving propaganda then you are not only not helping you are hurting your cause. Once you spout off garbage, the rest of your arguments are almost all assumed to be garbage. That is the real lesson. Speak the truth, solve the arbitrators problems and you will be fine. Not much of a secret.
One of those principles is that once the merger is closed, each pilot group's expectations are altered by the merger. One management team, one customer base, one revenue stream. Which pilots fly which routes and which bases grow and shrink are all irrelevant to management. They just move resources around to match their new network. Therefore, there is no way to separate out the results from each group.
That is why arbitrations back for years and years recognize that fact. It is not some magic concept that is whispered into someone's ear. It is just common sense and it is the truth. You can argue with me until you are blue in the face and it won't change the way the arbitrators view this. The worst thing a pilot group can do is to believe their own BS. That is what the East pilots did; they believed their own self serving propaganda and couldn't reconcile the fact that the entire rest of the world did not see things that way. They then blew up their careers for the better part of a decade.
So if it makes you feel better to believe that there is some way to separate out the financial results of the East and West in the last 7 years then believe that. Pretty much the entire rest of the world does not believe that. If you spend much time trying to convince the arbitrators of this self serving propaganda then you are not only not helping you are hurting your cause. Once you spout off garbage, the rest of your arguments are almost all assumed to be garbage. That is the real lesson. Speak the truth, solve the arbitrators problems and you will be fine. Not much of a secret.
I asked you a several questions, but no answers. I'm genuinely interested in your POV on them. Will you answer?
09-23-2014, 02:44 PM
#584
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Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Anyone who says the company "accepted" something, and that before Dec 9th 2013.... yes, seems like bias, especially if "speaking truth" is not much of a secret.
09-23-2014, 03:05 PM
#585
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
09-23-2014, 03:16 PM
#586
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
You quoted the post and responded, you just didn't answer all the questions.
Here ya go.
"I was surprised to read that you were in the top 15% of the DL list. In our past exchanges I would have sworn that you were a junior west guy. Just goes to show how assumptions can be made.
All the points you made are true, and you may be spot on about your predictions. But a few facts remain. At the time of the MOU the two pilot groups were completely separate, with separate seniority lists, fleets and contracts. The MOU called for a nullity to all that came before. So how does the board determine our career expectations? There was a high probability that someday we would have been a combined seniority list, but when, and what would it have looked like then? What if AOL lost their last appeal and decided to come to a compromise? What if we hit hard times and US divested part of the airline prior to a joint seniority list, like Frontier? What if we hit really hard times and filed chapter 7? Lot's of scenarios, so what does the panel use?
Hopefully they won't use the massively damaged crystal ball that Nic did. Did you ever read the US/AW dispatcher arbitration and read how Bloch came to a completely different conclusion about the value of the two airlines? And if you follow the rest of the airline business as well as you do SLIs, then you know that the period of separate operations showed that Bloch's vision was better than Nicolau's. So the new panel will uphold Nicolau's flawed work, just because they respected him? You ever fly with a guy that you respected, but saw him make a mistake? Would you say it wasn't a mistake just because you respected him? BTW, a manager of pilot scheduling recently said that the sole west base, PHX, was carrying about 20% more block hours than is necessary, only to meet contractual obligations of the MOU. Maybe he will be called to testify in the arbitration.
I've mentioned potential pitfalls for the west pilots going into this as a separate entity. Do you see any?
So, you have tons of experience and might be helping the west. Why? What's your interest in this? Justice? Pay? ALPA loyalty? Just curious.
If you are an ALPA loyalist looking for payback, a few questions. If the only problem with the Nic was the east pilot's reaction, why did it cause so many changes in ALPA policy, and pilot SLIs in general? Why did 3 guys from ALPA national tell me that they knew the Nicolau award was screwed up and they would fix the problem, they just couldn't do anything for us? "Sorry guys." "
BTW, I agree with a lot of what you've said. I've said the same thing about pilots believing their own BS. I agree that once an airline merges, the past goes out the window. As a matter of fact, that's been one of my reasons for frustration with ALPA merger policy. I even agree that after a merger it is impossible to break out exact financial data, as some many changes are made. But, with the merger it's clear to see how the flying and career progression went. It's clear that assumptions made by Nic were wrong. It's clear to see that he ignored the ALPA merger policy point to avoid windfalls at the expense of others.
Here ya go.
"I was surprised to read that you were in the top 15% of the DL list. In our past exchanges I would have sworn that you were a junior west guy. Just goes to show how assumptions can be made.
All the points you made are true, and you may be spot on about your predictions. But a few facts remain. At the time of the MOU the two pilot groups were completely separate, with separate seniority lists, fleets and contracts. The MOU called for a nullity to all that came before. So how does the board determine our career expectations? There was a high probability that someday we would have been a combined seniority list, but when, and what would it have looked like then? What if AOL lost their last appeal and decided to come to a compromise? What if we hit hard times and US divested part of the airline prior to a joint seniority list, like Frontier? What if we hit really hard times and filed chapter 7? Lot's of scenarios, so what does the panel use?
Hopefully they won't use the massively damaged crystal ball that Nic did. Did you ever read the US/AW dispatcher arbitration and read how Bloch came to a completely different conclusion about the value of the two airlines? And if you follow the rest of the airline business as well as you do SLIs, then you know that the period of separate operations showed that Bloch's vision was better than Nicolau's. So the new panel will uphold Nicolau's flawed work, just because they respected him? You ever fly with a guy that you respected, but saw him make a mistake? Would you say it wasn't a mistake just because you respected him? BTW, a manager of pilot scheduling recently said that the sole west base, PHX, was carrying about 20% more block hours than is necessary, only to meet contractual obligations of the MOU. Maybe he will be called to testify in the arbitration.
I've mentioned potential pitfalls for the west pilots going into this as a separate entity. Do you see any?
So, you have tons of experience and might be helping the west. Why? What's your interest in this? Justice? Pay? ALPA loyalty? Just curious.
If you are an ALPA loyalist looking for payback, a few questions. If the only problem with the Nic was the east pilot's reaction, why did it cause so many changes in ALPA policy, and pilot SLIs in general? Why did 3 guys from ALPA national tell me that they knew the Nicolau award was screwed up and they would fix the problem, they just couldn't do anything for us? "Sorry guys." "
BTW, I agree with a lot of what you've said. I've said the same thing about pilots believing their own BS. I agree that once an airline merges, the past goes out the window. As a matter of fact, that's been one of my reasons for frustration with ALPA merger policy. I even agree that after a merger it is impossible to break out exact financial data, as some many changes are made. But, with the merger it's clear to see how the flying and career progression went. It's clear that assumptions made by Nic were wrong. It's clear to see that he ignored the ALPA merger policy point to avoid windfalls at the expense of others.
09-23-2014, 04:18 PM
#588
Weekend workaholic
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 669
While I certainly don't speak for the West pilots, from my limited perspective the issue was the fact USAPA sold it as 100% seniority neutral and said that in no uncertain terms to the West pilot group face to face. Immediately after it was signed, USAPA then claimed it terminated the Nic completely. That seems a little disingenuous to me but that seems to be SOP for East union representation even before USAPA took over.
09-23-2014, 04:24 PM
#589
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
You quoted the post and responded, you just didn't answer all the questions.
Here ya go.
"I was surprised to read that you were in the top 15% of the DL list. In our past exchanges I would have sworn that you were a junior west guy. Just goes to show how assumptions can be made.
All the points you made are true, and you may be spot on about your predictions. But a few facts remain. At the time of the MOU the two pilot groups were completely separate, with separate seniority lists, fleets and contracts. The MOU called for a nullity to all that came before. So how does the board determine our career expectations? There was a high probability that someday we would have been a combined seniority list, but when, and what would it have looked like then? What if AOL lost their last appeal and decided to come to a compromise? What if we hit hard times and US divested part of the airline prior to a joint seniority list, like Frontier? What if we hit really hard times and filed chapter 7? Lot's of scenarios, so what does the panel use?
Hopefully they won't use the massively damaged crystal ball that Nic did. Did you ever read the US/AW dispatcher arbitration and read how Bloch came to a completely different conclusion about the value of the two airlines? And if you follow the rest of the airline business as well as you do SLIs, then you know that the period of separate operations showed that Bloch's vision was better than Nicolau's. So the new panel will uphold Nicolau's flawed work, just because they respected him? You ever fly with a guy that you respected, but saw him make a mistake? Would you say it wasn't a mistake just because you respected him? BTW, a manager of pilot scheduling recently said that the sole west base, PHX, was carrying about 20% more block hours than is necessary, only to meet contractual obligations of the MOU. Maybe he will be called to testify in the arbitration.
I've mentioned potential pitfalls for the west pilots going into this as a separate entity. Do you see any?
So, you have tons of experience and might be helping the west. Why? What's your interest in this? Justice? Pay? ALPA loyalty? Just curious.
If you are an ALPA loyalist looking for payback, a few questions. If the only problem with the Nic was the east pilot's reaction, why did it cause so many changes in ALPA policy, and pilot SLIs in general? Why did 3 guys from ALPA national tell me that they knew the Nicolau award was screwed up and they would fix the problem, they just couldn't do anything for us? "Sorry guys." "
BTW, I agree with a lot of what you've said. I've said the same thing about pilots believing their own BS. I agree that once an airline merges, the past goes out the window. As a matter of fact, that's been one of my reasons for frustration with ALPA merger policy. I even agree that after a merger it is impossible to break out exact financial data, as some many changes are made. But, with the merger it's clear to see how the flying and career progression went. It's clear that assumptions made by Nic were wrong. It's clear to see that he ignored the ALPA merger policy point to avoid windfalls at the expense of others.
Here ya go.
"I was surprised to read that you were in the top 15% of the DL list. In our past exchanges I would have sworn that you were a junior west guy. Just goes to show how assumptions can be made.
All the points you made are true, and you may be spot on about your predictions. But a few facts remain. At the time of the MOU the two pilot groups were completely separate, with separate seniority lists, fleets and contracts. The MOU called for a nullity to all that came before. So how does the board determine our career expectations? There was a high probability that someday we would have been a combined seniority list, but when, and what would it have looked like then? What if AOL lost their last appeal and decided to come to a compromise? What if we hit hard times and US divested part of the airline prior to a joint seniority list, like Frontier? What if we hit really hard times and filed chapter 7? Lot's of scenarios, so what does the panel use?
Hopefully they won't use the massively damaged crystal ball that Nic did. Did you ever read the US/AW dispatcher arbitration and read how Bloch came to a completely different conclusion about the value of the two airlines? And if you follow the rest of the airline business as well as you do SLIs, then you know that the period of separate operations showed that Bloch's vision was better than Nicolau's. So the new panel will uphold Nicolau's flawed work, just because they respected him? You ever fly with a guy that you respected, but saw him make a mistake? Would you say it wasn't a mistake just because you respected him? BTW, a manager of pilot scheduling recently said that the sole west base, PHX, was carrying about 20% more block hours than is necessary, only to meet contractual obligations of the MOU. Maybe he will be called to testify in the arbitration.
I've mentioned potential pitfalls for the west pilots going into this as a separate entity. Do you see any?
So, you have tons of experience and might be helping the west. Why? What's your interest in this? Justice? Pay? ALPA loyalty? Just curious.
If you are an ALPA loyalist looking for payback, a few questions. If the only problem with the Nic was the east pilot's reaction, why did it cause so many changes in ALPA policy, and pilot SLIs in general? Why did 3 guys from ALPA national tell me that they knew the Nicolau award was screwed up and they would fix the problem, they just couldn't do anything for us? "Sorry guys." "
BTW, I agree with a lot of what you've said. I've said the same thing about pilots believing their own BS. I agree that once an airline merges, the past goes out the window. As a matter of fact, that's been one of my reasons for frustration with ALPA merger policy. I even agree that after a merger it is impossible to break out exact financial data, as some many changes are made. But, with the merger it's clear to see how the flying and career progression went. It's clear that assumptions made by Nic were wrong. It's clear to see that he ignored the ALPA merger policy point to avoid windfalls at the expense of others.
I read Rich Bloch's award. As I said before, too much emphasis is placed on the financial pictures at each carrier. However, you cannot and I cannot say with any certainty what would have happened at US Airways or America West without the merger. If you think things worked out better for you, it was hopelessly tainted by the economic aspects of the merger and are not a reflection of a stand alone carrier. Sorry, but any economist will tell you the same answer. It doesn't matter whether one single management transferred flying from one base to another. That's what they do. It has nothing to do with a standalone America West.
I know you disagree with Nicolau's decision. The reason you go to arbitration is because you can't agree. It's too bad you can't come to grips with the consequences of that arbitration, but that is your problem to deal with.
The West has to assert their rights alone. It is clear that not only does USAPA have no interest in representing the West, they are intent on attacking them at every step along the way. USAPA was the antithesis of a union and it's a boon to the profession that they are gone now. Their behavior was reprehensible.
I am not involved in this arbitration in any way, other than interested spectator.
I am not looking for any payback only justice. ALPA policy changed to prevent the type of bullying of the minority by the majority that occurred in your integration. I know you guys think you are on a righteous path, but very few people agree with that. You threw away money for almost a decade and stomped all over the West with no attempt of fairness.
Windfalls were defined by you to suit your own needs. Therefore, you claim there were windfalls when most others don't see it. You all had the rules of the game and then you didn't like the end results. Then you claim that rules were rigged and you needed a do-over. That's not how it works.
History has shown that arbitrators fix your career expectations at the time the merger closes. For East/West that was 2005. Maybe this case will break the mold. My guess is not. I can tell you with high confidence that if your merger committee pretends that everything that has happened in the last 9 years has been solely due to the standalone US Airways, they will be looked at as unreliable sources. Most experts saw an airline that was in its second Chapter 11, out of cash, with no reorganization plan and no investors. All that changed when the merger was anticipated. To say the merger didn't change the vector of US Airways is not credible. You have already seen the consequences of throwing away your credibility in an arbitration. Your mileage may vary. It is not important what anyone thinks would have happened standalone for each airline; they didn't standalone and there is no way to tell what would have happened.
As for me, I am pretty much done with this argument, so blast away, just don't expect a response.
09-23-2014, 04:42 PM
#590
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
While I certainly don't speak for the West pilots, from my limited perspective the issue was the fact USAPA sold it as 100% seniority neutral and said that in no uncertain terms to the West pilot group face to face. Immediately after it was signed, USAPA then claimed it terminated the Nic completely. That seems a little disingenuous to me but that seems to be SOP for East union representation even before USAPA took over.
The MOU WAS neutral on seniority, that's why we are using the status quo and not the Nic or USAPA's DOH scheme. Just as it was the day before-Neutral. The claim that the MOU abandoned the obligation to use the Nic was a memorialized by a west lawsuit, right?
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