eaglefly

Ok, that wasn't the Nic award per se that resulted in leapfrogging, that was one pilots desire to exercise his contractual rights in the hope of capitalizing on his water ballet opportunity in the Hudson and in so doing, at some point chose to forgo seniority accrual. His seniority would likely be modified on the separate East list as that is what the CBA requires. Actually, the West could make any argument they want out of that in reference to the Nic, but again since that would be fully divulged by the other parties in the pilot information exchange phase (just as it would be for pilots on all lists), absent agreement about this pilots situation (or any similar pilots), the arbitrators would decide their slotting.

I don't think you can use unusual situations that exist on any of the lists that are in play to then claim that list doesn't exist. That would be a strawman argument. The Nic list is the originally awarded list and should any modification be required as a result of unusual situations like this (rare), the arbitrators would decide regardless of whatever argument whatever party chooses to supply absent agreement.

I suppose this pilots dream of a sitcom or detective series didn't pan out, but it's a choice HE made, not Nicolau and his adjustment on the East list or Nicolau in this case would be clearly justified.

Al Czervik

A civil debate on a thread called Nic. There's hope for us! Bravo guys. Bra-vo.

cactiboss

So the other side of the coin is, will the arbitrators punish 1700 pilots careers to benefit a group that held itself hostage?

eaglefly

First complete exchange of pilot info, then the parties MAY start negotiations on the defined identification and classification issues of the pilots on their lists and can negotiate on these issues for 45 days (but who knows they will ACTUALLY start). This will only occur right now between APA and USAPA. It will take months to resolve the JCBA which must be resolved first and then actual arbitration will commence on integration ASAP after that. In the interim, the West merger committee issue will be resolved so that by the time the JCBA is complete, the West issue will have been ruled on by arbitrators and then either 2 or 3 merger committees will proceed to throw fruit at each other for 12 days in front of the arbitration panel. Once they run out of fruit or the 12 days are up (whichever occurs first), then the arbitrators begin to contstruct their final list.

I think it will be very close to the 12/9/15 deadline before a final list is awarded and presented to the company.

eaglefly

Yep, that's the other side of the coin. My belief is that IF the Nic is used, it will just result in a complicated fence system (it would seem to have to) to not punish 10,000 AA pilots for placing a premium on protecting what careers 1700 West pilots felt they were cheated out of and it's a question APA can't (and won't) take responsibility for and thus the requirement for BOTH arbitrations in the PA.

cactiboss

It would not punish one single American pilot. You discount that it's 1700 pilots within a group of 15000, you also discount the 340 aircraft usairways brings. The relative position of American pilots won't be affected one iota by using nic. order.

eaglefly

I'm afraid most AA pilots will disagree and it would be wise to assume that whatever position APA takes, it won't be for a pure Nic inclusion either. Again, I see you're arguing that you are really one pilot group and one airline and I get that argument and had that come to fruition, we wouldn't be disagreeing about anything, but the fact is your operations and lists are indeed separate and absent the merger, there was no light at the end of the tunnel of that changing.

Sure, our present relative seniority wont be changed, but the Nic would give fast access to pre-merger AA Group III and even Group IV flying by pilots who previous pre-merger career expectations maxed out flying narrowbody equipment for $80-$130/hour (or thereabouts) out of one domicile. Considering the various placement of West pilots on the Nic list, I can see a lot of windfall opportunity at the expense of pre-merger AA pilots using the pre-merger Nic and absent fences, I have difficulty seeing that outcome. This SLI consideration will also consider compensation as a factor, both at the time of merger (U pilots based on their pre-merger contracts) and future (also based on those contracts). So, one of the many questions for the arbitrators is, is a pre-merger $85/hour job (narrowbody F/O) in PHX worth as much or even more then a $135/hour job (767 F/O) in MIA ?

Should the Nic be allowed to potentially place that $85/hour (pre-merger) West PHX pilot ahead of that $135/hour (pre-merger) AA MIA pilot without some form of mitigator to prevent what would be a windfall ?

You can make even more of an argument in the captain's compensation discrepancy dept regarding the same comparison and asking the same question. Again, and it's just my opinion, pre-merger career expectation based on the actual state of pilots at their pre-merger carriers is the most significant factor in avoiding windfalls.

cactiboss

Again, those airplanes will be fenced, the only group IV airplanes the west would be able to bid into for a number of years would the aircraft usairways brings, no American positions would be touched. I am glad you bring up pay and total compensation as a factor. Every group 2 phx pilot has out earned and had vastly better benefits than the east pilots flying the same aircraft, should the arbitrators take that in consideration guess what they end up with?

algflyr

Not sure that's quite accurate. Of course the West doesn't have 330's which paid more and the 757 paid more on the East. But for the Group II, up until just a few years ago, when the attrition started ramping up, almost ALL the FO's on the East Group II aircraft were top of scale pay. My guess is that there was nowhere near the same percentage of West FO's making top of scale pay...

Hueypilot

Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things, but we have a few AA pilots in my Reserve unit, and we talk about this stuff from time to time. None of them view the Nic award as "fair". Not that they have any love for USAPA, but I'm not sure how far the west will get with trying to use the Nic list.