Nic ...
09-17-2014, 08:45 PM
#381
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A330 F/O, KC-135 AC
Posts: 76
cactiboss by far you are the most entertaining tool and you amuse me to no end. Just one question. How are you going to sleep at night if you don't get the Nic (or anything close to it) and PHX ends up looking like St Louis? The Nic is certainly possibly but it's also very possible that the final award will look nothing like it.
09-17-2014, 09:42 PM
#382
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2011
Posts: 227
We'll see if USAPA gets DOH. If not, a lot of the west (though cacti perhaps excluded) will likely consider the fight as having been worth it against the east, even without the NIC. Without the fight, the result was DOH.
Hopefully APA doesn't go down the USAPA route (ignore an arbitrated decision and force something if they don't like it). I think most groups would have learned from the USAPA experience.
09-17-2014, 09:57 PM
#383
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A330 F/O, KC-135 AC
Posts: 76
The USAPA DOH fantasy is less likely than the Nic..
I hesitate to even compare USAPA to the APA. The APA is much more experienced, well funded and most importantly they are a little more unified. An AA guy can probably speak better to it but their battle plan generally seems to be arbitration, I think that's how the captains positions in Stl that went away were protected elsewhere. I'm sure it's not perfect over there by the way but probably a lot better than USAPA.
I hesitate to even compare USAPA to the APA. The APA is much more experienced, well funded and most importantly they are a little more unified. An AA guy can probably speak better to it but their battle plan generally seems to be arbitration, I think that's how the captains positions in Stl that went away were protected elsewhere. I'm sure it's not perfect over there by the way but probably a lot better than USAPA.
My sense is that most of the west just wanted to avoid the USAPA DOH proposal. I know USAPA thinks DOH is the only fair way (it's in the constitution) and that the USAPA process post NIC was a model of fairness but for a lot of the west, especially after nic, the USAPA approach didn't really feel very fair.
We'll see if USAPA gets DOH. If not, a lot of the west (though cacti perhaps excluded) will likely consider the fight as having been worth it against the east, even without the NIC. Without the fight, the result was DOH.
Hopefully APA doesn't go down the USAPA route (ignore an arbitrated decision and force something if they don't like it). I think most groups would have learned from the USAPA experience.
We'll see if USAPA gets DOH. If not, a lot of the west (though cacti perhaps excluded) will likely consider the fight as having been worth it against the east, even without the NIC. Without the fight, the result was DOH.
Hopefully APA doesn't go down the USAPA route (ignore an arbitrated decision and force something if they don't like it). I think most groups would have learned from the USAPA experience.
09-17-2014, 10:27 PM
#384
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
cactiboss by far you are the most entertaining tool and you amuse me to no end. Just one question. How are you going to sleep at night if you don't get the Nic (or anything close to it) and PHX ends up looking like St Louis? The Nic is certainly possibly but it's also very possible that the final award will look nothing like it.
09-18-2014, 12:25 AM
#385
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
My sense is that most of the west just wanted to avoid the USAPA DOH proposal. I know USAPA thinks DOH is the only fair way (it's in the constitution) and that the USAPA process post NIC was a model of fairness but for a lot of the west, especially after nic, the USAPA approach didn't really feel very fair.
We'll see if USAPA gets DOH. If not, a lot of the west (though cacti perhaps excluded) will likely consider the fight as having been worth it against the east, even without the NIC. Without the fight, the result was DOH.
Hopefully APA doesn't go down the USAPA route (ignore an arbitrated decision and force something if they don't like it). I think most groups would have learned from the USAPA experience.
We'll see if USAPA gets DOH. If not, a lot of the west (though cacti perhaps excluded) will likely consider the fight as having been worth it against the east, even without the NIC. Without the fight, the result was DOH.
Hopefully APA doesn't go down the USAPA route (ignore an arbitrated decision and force something if they don't like it). I think most groups would have learned from the USAPA experience.
09-18-2014, 05:24 AM
#386
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Should that final ISL devised by arbitrators NOT contain the pure Nic (which I don't think it will), the APA will be off the hook for DFR from the West. The APA didn't "inherit" a requirement to just impose the Nic into this situation as to do so would conflict with their DFR to others pilots, most notably AA legacy (pre-merger). Ultimately, arbitrators will decide that issue and thus APA has acted as properly in that respect as possible. A fair chance at arguing for the Nic is the best possible outcome for the West at this point.
09-18-2014, 08:22 AM
#387
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: Done with that
Posts: 191
My sense is that most of the west just wanted to avoid the USAPA DOH proposal. I know USAPA thinks DOH is the only fair way (it's in the constitution) and that the USAPA process post NIC was a model of fairness but for a lot of the west, especially after nic, the USAPA approach didn't really feel very fair.
We'll see if USAPA gets DOH. If not, a lot of the west (though cacti perhaps excluded) will likely consider the fight as having been worth it against the east, even without the NIC. Without the fight, the result was DOH.
Hopefully APA doesn't go down the USAPA route (ignore an arbitrated decision and force something if they don't like it). I think most groups would have learned from the USAPA experience.
We'll see if USAPA gets DOH. If not, a lot of the west (though cacti perhaps excluded) will likely consider the fight as having been worth it against the east, even without the NIC. Without the fight, the result was DOH.
Hopefully APA doesn't go down the USAPA route (ignore an arbitrated decision and force something if they don't like it). I think most groups would have learned from the USAPA experience.
09-18-2014, 09:00 AM
#388
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 147
My sense is that most of the west just wanted to avoid the USAPA DOH proposal. I know USAPA thinks DOH is the only fair way (it's in the constitution) and that the USAPA process post NIC was a model of fairness but for a lot of the west, especially after nic, the USAPA approach didn't really feel very fair.
We'll see if USAPA gets DOH. If not, a lot of the west (though cacti perhaps excluded) will likely consider the fight as having been worth it against the east, even without the NIC. Without the fight, the result was DOH.
Hopefully APA doesn't go down the USAPA route (ignore an arbitrated decision and force something if they don't like it). I think most groups would have learned from the USAPA experience.
We'll see if USAPA gets DOH. If not, a lot of the west (though cacti perhaps excluded) will likely consider the fight as having been worth it against the east, even without the NIC. Without the fight, the result was DOH.
Hopefully APA doesn't go down the USAPA route (ignore an arbitrated decision and force something if they don't like it). I think most groups would have learned from the USAPA experience.
FO Roghair communicated that the protocol agreement for seniority integration should be complete and that the only major barriers have been superfluous and unacceptable USAPA demands, including:
- Obligating APA to pay post-single carrier USAPA bills, including costs of its current headquarters
- Maintaining USAPA's independent operation authority throughout the JCBA and SLI process
- Paying for ongoing litigation expenses in Addington and any subsequent DFR cases
- Recognizing USAPA as a party to the protocol agreement even after USAPA ceases to be the certified bargaining representative (contrary to its own position in the Addington litigation, the judge's ruling in that case and the specific language of the MOU)
https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/...The-Facts.aspx
The America West pilot group is demanding their dues money through legal action. The APA should not participate in a process with an entity which has been the target of numerous lawsuits.
It would be in the APA's best interest to stay clear of the mess.
09-18-2014, 09:02 AM
#389
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: MD-11 FO
Posts: 2,232
USAPA certainly has been able to delay, not get rid of the Nic. Their actions after the APA has become the bargaining agent are troubling. The America West pilots should get their share of dues money returned. Neil Roghair rejected the idea that USAPA would remain as an entity.
FO Roghair communicated that the protocol agreement for seniority integration should be complete and that the only major barriers have been superfluous and unacceptable USAPA demands, including:
https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/...The-Facts.aspx
The America West pilot group is demanding their dues money through legal action. The APA should not participate in a process with an entity which has been the target of numerous lawsuits.
It would be in the APA's best interest to stay clear of the mess.
FO Roghair communicated that the protocol agreement for seniority integration should be complete and that the only major barriers have been superfluous and unacceptable USAPA demands, including:
- Obligating APA to pay post-single carrier USAPA bills, including costs of its current headquarters
- Maintaining USAPA's independent operation authority throughout the JCBA and SLI process
- Paying for ongoing litigation expenses in Addington and any subsequent DFR cases
- Recognizing USAPA as a party to the protocol agreement even after USAPA ceases to be the certified bargaining representative (contrary to its own position in the Addington litigation, the judge's ruling in that case and the specific language of the MOU)
https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/...The-Facts.aspx
The America West pilot group is demanding their dues money through legal action. The APA should not participate in a process with an entity which has been the target of numerous lawsuits.
It would be in the APA's best interest to stay clear of the mess.
I believe the current Protocol Agreement is the one you should refer to. Being an AA pilot, you should have access to it and you should also have know that it was agreed to a couple of weeks ago. I'll let you read it from the APA site and then you can comment. We'll wait.
09-18-2014, 09:08 AM
#390
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 147
That's an old update from months ago.
I believe the current Protocol Agreement is the one you should refer to. Being an AA pilot, you should have access to it and you should also have know that it was agreed to a couple of weeks ago. I'll let you read it from the APA site and then you can comment. We'll wait.
I believe the current Protocol Agreement is the one you should refer to. Being an AA pilot, you should have access to it and you should also have know that it was agreed to a couple of weeks ago. I'll let you read it from the APA site and then you can comment. We'll wait.
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