Nic ...
09-15-2014, 01:58 PM
#351
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
What true expectations did that West F/O have of flying such equipment based on opportunities that for whatever reason (right or wrong) never materialized ?
Just as importantly (and this would apply to East pilots as well), since present and anticipated compensation at pre-merger is a quantifiable factor in considering the weight and value of pre-merger career expectations, how much was that West F/O making prior to the merge and what was his equipment and pay increase expectations relative to that same senior AA legacy F/O ?
Should an $85/hour (or whatever the senior West F/O pay was pre-merger) job in PHX equate or even outweigh a $130/hour job in MIA ?
To balance out the inequities that the Nic may give West pilots, especially in relation to AA pilots, serious fences would be needed to maintain career expectations. I'd be surprised if the arbitrators give the same weight to a 40% Nic pilot who was flying as a narrowbody F/O in PHX with that of a 40% AA pilot who might even be holding a $180/hour captains position, let alone that $130/hour AA F/O, but in order to place such pilot below AA F/O X above and eliminate a fence, he'd have to place all the East captains junior to him as well (to say nothing of all the East F/O's).
I suppose anything's possible, I just don't see that. I see a hybrid that bears little resemblance to the Nic.
09-15-2014, 02:00 PM
#352
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Well, ONE arbitrator thought that way and in the context of a pure U/AWA merge, it's debatable with some valid arguments from East pilots on its propriety. Since it was never implemented and as a result, the two pilot groups have remained separate and more importantly from a future arbitral consideration standpoint, would likely CONTINUE to remain separate for an extended period of time (perhaps even arguably in perpetuity) absent this merger, A MAJOR question for the final arbitration panel for THIS merge will be "does adoption of a pure Nic template for the US Airways pilot group as a whole simplify or complicate the concept of pre-merger career expectations as a litmus for this SLI with AA pilots ?".
Maintaining the pre-merger career expectations of all pilot groups will be a major argument in this SLI so as to prevent a windfall for any one group within the 3 presently defined lists. Regardless of whether the West gets their own reps and even if they then argue for the Nic, the arbitrators could discount that argument in that it would force undesirable complexities on a final ISL, including, but not limited to extensive and complicated fences. Personally, I don't see this final arbitration panel placing adoption of the unconsummated Nic as the first priority if it forces excessive complexities in the ISL or sacrifices the pre-merger career expectations of AA pilots.
Maintaining the pre-merger career expectations of all pilot groups will be a major argument in this SLI so as to prevent a windfall for any one group within the 3 presently defined lists. Regardless of whether the West gets their own reps and even if they then argue for the Nic, the arbitrators could discount that argument in that it would force undesirable complexities on a final ISL, including, but not limited to extensive and complicated fences. Personally, I don't see this final arbitration panel placing adoption of the unconsummated Nic as the first priority if it forces excessive complexities in the ISL or sacrifices the pre-merger career expectations of AA pilots.
I can't see the tail wagging the dog on this one. Based on previous SLIs, I can't help but seeing AA pilots having the advantage here. Because of their higher % of widebodies(thus pay) more of them have the expectation of hitting that mark.
I like this whole civil thing! ;-)
09-15-2014, 02:36 PM
#354
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
So, you're saying a fence wouldn't be needed to prevent a West F/O at the 40 percentile rank on the Nic list who should he end up technically senior to a senior legacy AA F/O on the pre-merger list to outbid him to a Group IV (777,787) F/O slot or Group II captains position on legacy AA equipment ?
What true expectations did that West F/O have of flying such equipment based on opportunities that for whatever reason (right or wrong) never materialized ?
Just as importantly (and this would apply to East pilots as well), since present and anticipated compensation at pre-merger is a quantifiable factor in considering the weight and value of pre-merger career expectations, how much was that West F/O making prior to the merge and what was his equipment and pay increase expectations relative to that same senior AA legacy F/O ?
Should an $85/hour (or whatever the senior West F/O pay was pre-merger) job in PHX equate or even outweigh a $130/hour job in MIA ?
To balance out the inequities that the Nic may give West pilots, especially in relation to AA pilots, serious fences would be needed to maintain career expectations. I'd be surprised if the arbitrators give the same weight to a 40% Nic pilot who was flying as a narrowbody F/O in PHX with that of a 40% AA pilot who might even be holding a $180/hour captains position, let alone that $130/hour AA F/O, but in order to place such pilot below AA F/O X above and eliminate a fence, he'd have to place all the East captains junior to him as well (to say nothing of all the East F/O's).
I suppose anything's possible, I just don't see that. I see a hybrid that bears little resemblance to the Nic.
What true expectations did that West F/O have of flying such equipment based on opportunities that for whatever reason (right or wrong) never materialized ?
Just as importantly (and this would apply to East pilots as well), since present and anticipated compensation at pre-merger is a quantifiable factor in considering the weight and value of pre-merger career expectations, how much was that West F/O making prior to the merge and what was his equipment and pay increase expectations relative to that same senior AA legacy F/O ?
Should an $85/hour (or whatever the senior West F/O pay was pre-merger) job in PHX equate or even outweigh a $130/hour job in MIA ?
To balance out the inequities that the Nic may give West pilots, especially in relation to AA pilots, serious fences would be needed to maintain career expectations. I'd be surprised if the arbitrators give the same weight to a 40% Nic pilot who was flying as a narrowbody F/O in PHX with that of a 40% AA pilot who might even be holding a $180/hour captains position, let alone that $130/hour AA F/O, but in order to place such pilot below AA F/O X above and eliminate a fence, he'd have to place all the East captains junior to him as well (to say nothing of all the East F/O's).
I suppose anything's possible, I just don't see that. I see a hybrid that bears little resemblance to the Nic.
09-15-2014, 02:38 PM
#355
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Really, the arbitrators "bought' that single management control is appropriate snapshot date, when did usairways/awa merge? Let be more clear, when were usairways/AWA run as one company?
09-15-2014, 02:54 PM
#358
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Apples and oranges, by your train of thought then the west pilots shpuld be senior to east pilots because they made more and had more vacation. 5200 usairways positions will be merged into 10000 american positions, doesn't matter what names are at each position. What does it matter if it's an east pilot or west pilot's name at a particular position? See you are running under the assumption that 3 distinct airlines are merging, that is not the case, there are 2 airlines here.
09-15-2014, 02:55 PM
#359
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 449
As has been said before, the requirements to use the NIC award was never finalized, Never saw the light of day. MOU stated all prior agreements were null. As eagle has stated Using the NIC Would require extensive fences to protect the AA guys. I can't see them willing to have an '07 hire mixed in their 87 hires. Not going to happen.
How ' bout the old solution that the NIC applies to the phx base, outside of that world whatever, apa/usapa/ or the arbitrators come up with.
I think the AA guys are starting to see what the NIC could mean to them.....
How ' bout the old solution that the NIC applies to the phx base, outside of that world whatever, apa/usapa/ or the arbitrators come up with.
I think the AA guys are starting to see what the NIC could mean to them.....
09-15-2014, 03:00 PM
#360
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Pretty much as two separate companies. Notice the AWA flag on the nose doors ? Didn't you guys brag that your pay checks still said AWA until recently?
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