Nic ...
09-13-2014, 06:23 PM
#251
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Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
That is an amazing set of facts Cacti, and it will be interesting to see how the usapian merger committee will treat the west whether they are allowed their own representation or not...Think about it, if the west comes under the purview of USAPA they will still be treated, effectively, as a separate group within a group in competition with the east list as well as APA for SLI positions...still the 3 lists scenario...just a slight conflict of interest there...USAPA (being, effectively an "east" entity) lobbying both for and against factions coming under its legal purview....i.e. -in that scenario absolutely no possibility of fairness for the west. Even my longtime friend R57, in his infinite, unbiased opinion (and no doubt, in his infinite joy at seeing me re-enter the fray in this argument) has acknowledged his semibeloved USAPA might not be the best advocates for the west position...
On the other hand...separate reps for the west advocating the Nic will assuredly be met by the black-hearted pirates of Usapia with an attempt at total delegitimization of the Nic...which will lead into the same arguments presented leading up to the Nic...a rehashing of the relevant pilot demographics of each airline AT THE TIME OF THE ORIGINAL MERGER....which, of course would be the only legitimate timeframe from which to argue the merits/deficiencies of the Nic.
Now, in either scenario it seems Usapians will be forced, by their own central position at the center of the universe...manifested as an innate disregard of all human ethical concepts excepting where it applies to their own benefit, -to advocate regarding the west as a Johnny-come-lately group who suddenly appeared on the scene at the time of the AA merger....-a group whose star has been falling...a meteoric, arcing plunge over the past 7 years that has seen a base closing and across the board cutbacks and furloughs...all that, of course, having nothing whatsoever to do with anything inside the lofty, rarefied central atmosphere of Usapia...
Seriously though, how will USAPA advocate the placing of its 3rd listers below the west (giving them credit that they will at least recognize the sanity of that move)...and yet pretend that the SLI should be a complete do-over from scratch, starting at the time of the AA merger? It seems the bounds of self-centered hypocrisy stand a good chance of being stretched beyond the historical limits of even usapian rational thought.
On the other hand...separate reps for the west advocating the Nic will assuredly be met by the black-hearted pirates of Usapia with an attempt at total delegitimization of the Nic...which will lead into the same arguments presented leading up to the Nic...a rehashing of the relevant pilot demographics of each airline AT THE TIME OF THE ORIGINAL MERGER....which, of course would be the only legitimate timeframe from which to argue the merits/deficiencies of the Nic.
Now, in either scenario it seems Usapians will be forced, by their own central position at the center of the universe...manifested as an innate disregard of all human ethical concepts excepting where it applies to their own benefit, -to advocate regarding the west as a Johnny-come-lately group who suddenly appeared on the scene at the time of the AA merger....-a group whose star has been falling...a meteoric, arcing plunge over the past 7 years that has seen a base closing and across the board cutbacks and furloughs...all that, of course, having nothing whatsoever to do with anything inside the lofty, rarefied central atmosphere of Usapia...
Seriously though, how will USAPA advocate the placing of its 3rd listers below the west (giving them credit that they will at least recognize the sanity of that move)...and yet pretend that the SLI should be a complete do-over from scratch, starting at the time of the AA merger? It seems the bounds of self-centered hypocrisy stand a good chance of being stretched beyond the historical limits of even usapian rational thought.
You are correct, I came to think that if we have separate lists, there is logic in a separate west committee. I guess USAPA legal had a different opinion.
09-13-2014, 07:16 PM
#252
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Posts: 3,240
09-13-2014, 07:35 PM
#253
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Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 335
On the Nic, the junior guy on the East that was never furloughed was hired in July 1988. Never furloughed. 17 years of continuous service. Slotted next a West pilot hired in April 2005. The West pilot was still in groundschool, hadn't even flown an aircraft for the company...
09-13-2014, 08:04 PM
#254
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Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Unlike one of the other posters, this does not "make me want to throw up." I don't know if it is accurate or not, but it really doesn't matter even if it is. AWA was founded in what 1982 or 1983?... Anyone hired at US after about 1988 was furloughed?... The shear disparity inherent in the historical timeline of these two pilot groups virtually assures that any SLI that fairly protects the relative seniority of both groups would have huge differences like you delineated. It was inevitable, and it was obvious that the SLI negotiations would go to arbitration... What was not obvious was that when the East side did not get their way (DOH), that they would invoke the tyranny of the majority. I know why they did it, and understand it to an extent. This is an arbitrary business subject to the whims of timing and to some extent shear luck; but the manner in which they comported themselves, agreeing to binding arbitration then backing out of that commitment was fairly disgusting. Ive seen a lot of tortured reasoning on these boards to explain it all away, and I'm sure they will find a way to believe it all, but most of us know better, and we will remember.
Tyranny of the majority. What a catchy phrase, and completely inappropriate for the situation . For the 100th time, under the transition agreement, both sides, independently, had to ratify a JCBA before a SLI could be used. So, we could have stayed in ALPA, used that provision and be in exactly the same position that we are in today. Do you not get that, or do you intentionally ignore that FACT? Gomer.
I was here, unlike you, and I know that the east didn't balk only because we didn't get DOH. First off, we didn't even ask for DOH, we asked for LOS. Second, the group could have been okay with any number of integrations, just not the blatently unfair one we got. As a matter of fact, our merger committee seriously considered a proposal that was not LOS.
You will never forget? Who cares. Your DL, right? I won't ever forget you guys unleashing the RJs at the regionals.
09-14-2014, 02:38 AM
#257
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Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: A320
Posts: 225
The east demanded DOH, the arbitrator asked they change their position to something more reasonable, the east replied to arbitrator Nicolau "we are comfortable with our position."
R57 is part of the radical group of first officers, hired either at age 20 or 21 (his father wodked at Piedmont and got him the job) and he was set to inherit his own little North Carolina empire, or so he thought....
Three mergers later here he is. The first merger Piedmont wanted relative seniority but got screwed with doh. Next one, with the old Eastern pilots sold off to Trump, the US Air guys wanted relative seniority and they got exactly that with George Nicolau. Thinking Nicolau will deliver for the US Air pilots again, they were happy to select George Nicolau a second time, and they got who they wanted for the SLI with America West.
So, that's why he comes on here 24/7 advertising how he got screwed by the west and an arbitrator his own union was happy to select. 3500 posts of contorted "logic" to explain how screwed up the arbitration process is. I imagine APC will get at least another 3500 if the west gets a seat at the table and successfully represents their interests in the upcoming SLI. Not to mention the almost certain frivolous lawsuits the east will file in attempts to stonewall and impede the SLI and jcba implementation every step of the way. It's already started with the PA and there are rumors the east is planning on filing lawsuits if the west gets a seat at the table. I guess this behavior is just how they are raised, either that or it's in their DNA.
R57 is part of the radical group of first officers, hired either at age 20 or 21 (his father wodked at Piedmont and got him the job) and he was set to inherit his own little North Carolina empire, or so he thought....
Three mergers later here he is. The first merger Piedmont wanted relative seniority but got screwed with doh. Next one, with the old Eastern pilots sold off to Trump, the US Air guys wanted relative seniority and they got exactly that with George Nicolau. Thinking Nicolau will deliver for the US Air pilots again, they were happy to select George Nicolau a second time, and they got who they wanted for the SLI with America West.
So, that's why he comes on here 24/7 advertising how he got screwed by the west and an arbitrator his own union was happy to select. 3500 posts of contorted "logic" to explain how screwed up the arbitration process is. I imagine APC will get at least another 3500 if the west gets a seat at the table and successfully represents their interests in the upcoming SLI. Not to mention the almost certain frivolous lawsuits the east will file in attempts to stonewall and impede the SLI and jcba implementation every step of the way. It's already started with the PA and there are rumors the east is planning on filing lawsuits if the west gets a seat at the table. I guess this behavior is just how they are raised, either that or it's in their DNA.
09-14-2014, 05:33 AM
#259
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,419
Will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.
Re-read the Nic again. (Warning-Snake in the grass popping in). Was surprised to read the mention of the Age 65 potential and it's impact on Relative Seniority at the new US Air--Nic disregarded it as unlikely and did not consider it. Makes it all the more interesting that one of the East's arguments was their aging crew force would lead to a rapid increase of seniority for the West pilots once the large number of guys retired-thus the need for better Seniority by the East guys to accumulate some buckage for retirement
Also made mention that both sides held unrealistic and unfair proposals. On the East side, many pilots in the holding pattern with an expectation of jets being returned to the lessor....certainly could have meant additional furloughs going forward. DOH makes very little sense when that results in many furloughees being placed above active pilots and turns FO's into Capts and Capt's into FOs
On the West, their proposal was also unfair in the metrics. Didn't help that going into the Merger West was actively hiring. Still, have to wonder how a furloughed US Air pilot hired by the West would have been treated during the SLI. Did he\she get the best of their US Air DOH seniority or the relative seniority of the West proposal? Would he\she been able to pick the better of their perceived potential seniorities?
Nic went with the merger date, and placed the most Junior West pilot below the Active Junior East pilot, with all of the furloughees at the bottom of the list.
The 3 arbitrators clearly put some time into considering the Fence's and Ratio's on the remainder of the SLI and did the best they could with a very difficult situation
Re-read the Nic again. (Warning-Snake in the grass popping in). Was surprised to read the mention of the Age 65 potential and it's impact on Relative Seniority at the new US Air--Nic disregarded it as unlikely and did not consider it. Makes it all the more interesting that one of the East's arguments was their aging crew force would lead to a rapid increase of seniority for the West pilots once the large number of guys retired-thus the need for better Seniority by the East guys to accumulate some buckage for retirement
Also made mention that both sides held unrealistic and unfair proposals. On the East side, many pilots in the holding pattern with an expectation of jets being returned to the lessor....certainly could have meant additional furloughs going forward. DOH makes very little sense when that results in many furloughees being placed above active pilots and turns FO's into Capts and Capt's into FOs
On the West, their proposal was also unfair in the metrics. Didn't help that going into the Merger West was actively hiring. Still, have to wonder how a furloughed US Air pilot hired by the West would have been treated during the SLI. Did he\she get the best of their US Air DOH seniority or the relative seniority of the West proposal? Would he\she been able to pick the better of their perceived potential seniorities?
Nic went with the merger date, and placed the most Junior West pilot below the Active Junior East pilot, with all of the furloughees at the bottom of the list.
The 3 arbitrators clearly put some time into considering the Fence's and Ratio's on the remainder of the SLI and did the best they could with a very difficult situation
09-14-2014, 07:39 AM
#260
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.
Re-read the Nic again. (Warning-Snake in the grass popping in). Was surprised to read the mention of the Age 65 potential and it's impact on Relative Seniority at the new US Air--Nic disregarded it as unlikely and did not consider it. Makes it all the more interesting that one of the East's arguments was their aging crew force would lead to a rapid increase of seniority for the West pilots once the large number of guys retired-thus the need for better Seniority by the East guys to accumulate some buckage for retirement
Also made mention that both sides held unrealistic and unfair proposals. On the East side, many pilots in the holding pattern with an expectation of jets being returned to the lessor....certainly could have meant additional furloughs going forward. DOH makes very little sense when that results in many furloughees being placed above active pilots and turns FO's into Capts and Capt's into FOs
On the West, their proposal was also unfair in the metrics. Didn't help that going into the Merger West was actively hiring. Still, have to wonder how a furloughed US Air pilot hired by the West would have been treated during the SLI. Did he\she get the best of their US Air DOH seniority or the relative seniority of the West proposal? Would he\she been able to pick the better of their perceived potential seniorities?
Nic went with the merger date, and placed the most Junior West pilot below the Active Junior East pilot, with all of the furloughees at the bottom of the list.
The 3 arbitrators clearly put some time into considering the Fence's and Ratio's on the remainder of the SLI and did the best they could with a very difficult situation
Re-read the Nic again. (Warning-Snake in the grass popping in). Was surprised to read the mention of the Age 65 potential and it's impact on Relative Seniority at the new US Air--Nic disregarded it as unlikely and did not consider it. Makes it all the more interesting that one of the East's arguments was their aging crew force would lead to a rapid increase of seniority for the West pilots once the large number of guys retired-thus the need for better Seniority by the East guys to accumulate some buckage for retirement
Also made mention that both sides held unrealistic and unfair proposals. On the East side, many pilots in the holding pattern with an expectation of jets being returned to the lessor....certainly could have meant additional furloughs going forward. DOH makes very little sense when that results in many furloughees being placed above active pilots and turns FO's into Capts and Capt's into FOs
On the West, their proposal was also unfair in the metrics. Didn't help that going into the Merger West was actively hiring. Still, have to wonder how a furloughed US Air pilot hired by the West would have been treated during the SLI. Did he\she get the best of their US Air DOH seniority or the relative seniority of the West proposal? Would he\she been able to pick the better of their perceived potential seniorities?
Nic went with the merger date, and placed the most Junior West pilot below the Active Junior East pilot, with all of the furloughees at the bottom of the list.
The 3 arbitrators clearly put some time into considering the Fence's and Ratio's on the remainder of the SLI and did the best they could with a very difficult situation
First off, it wasn't a panel of 3 arbitrators, it was one arbitrator and two neutral pilots. The neutrals had no vote. Brucia wrote a great dissent. Did you read it? It was spot on and had Nicolau listened to him and adjusted just what he addressed, I don't think we would be here today.
Did you notice the staffing models? Go back to them and run the staffing numbers for AWA on the US side, and you will see that we would have had about 300 more pilots at the time the merger was announce, about the same number we recalled on the east prior to the list Nic used. How is it that an airline with more efficient scheduling carried more pilots per airplane? Because the east was massively understaffed, trying to keep it's costs low and get the merger done. So, the east lost twice the number of airframes as the west post merger, the age 60 rule DID change, and the east has still moved forward. Wouldn't you say that shows Nic's assumptions were incorrect?
I'd say the west's proposal was unreasonable. They proposed stapling 900 ACTIVE PILOTS as of the time the merger was announced behind a guy in ground school. Did you notice where he said NEITHER side really changed their stance much? East none, west little.
Nicolau used the seniority list from 2007, almost 2 years after the merger was announced, because in his words "it more reflected the realities of the merged airline." Yeah, the reality that the merged airline removed twice the hulls from the east as the west, but recalled over 300 pilots. Yet, those 300 pilots were the only group held to their 2005 position of furloughed.
And as far as fences, they went poof with the age 60 change.
Now, on the unfair to the west front. Nic's method of protecting widebody flying(AWA had none, remember?) was to figure every widebody flying seat, (capt, F/O and IRO) and place that number of US pilots on the top of the list. It was 517 or close to 10%. Do you see that as an odd way to protect widebody flying? That gave the #517 guy super seniority, as he wasn't a widebody captain(at least on a stovepipe situation). So he was actually in a lower position than the #1 AWA guy, but got put way ahead of him. A PSA guy I know in that group planned on going to PHX as soon as he could and enjoying that windfall.
Also, if the top 10% of one list was on top of the new list, wouldn't that bootstrap the rest up. It didn't, I ended up at about the same relative position as the old list, with the result that I would never progress as I would have on the old US list-that was shifted to the west. The west guy that gave the presentation to Captain Hale would have retired at 13% on the west list. With the Nic he would make it to 3%. A 10 percentage point gain, on a bigger airline with widebodies and TA flying that his airline didn't have.
Anyway, thanks for the input. Really doesn't matter now, except to learn from the mistakes. I think someone at the APA or USAPA did. One good thing in the PA was that nothing in negotiations would be used against the other in arbitration. The fear of that kept the US committee from showing the west committee and outside SLI proposal. It placed some formerly furloughed east guys ahead of O'dell, something the west said they wouldn't accept, but was was more generous to the west than LOS. They feared the west would use that against them, so never presented it. Opportunity lost. (I was told this by an east committee member)
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