Originally Posted by wiggy

That is an amazing set of facts Cacti, and it will be interesting to see how the usapian merger committee will treat the west whether they are allowed their own representation or not...Think about it, if the west comes under the purview of USAPA they will still be treated, effectively, as a separate group within a group in competition with the east list as well as APA for SLI positions...still the 3 lists scenario...just a slight conflict of interest there...USAPA (being, effectively an "east" entity) lobbying both for and against factions coming under its legal purview....i.e. -in that scenario absolutely no possibility of fairness for the west. Even my longtime friend R57, in his infinite, unbiased opinion (and no doubt, in his infinite joy at seeing me re-enter the fray in this argument) has acknowledged his semibeloved USAPA might not be the best advocates for the west position...

On the other hand...separate reps for the west advocating the Nic will assuredly be met by the black-hearted pirates of Usapia with an attempt at total delegitimization of the Nic...which will lead into the same arguments presented leading up to the Nic...a rehashing of the relevant pilot demographics of each airline AT THE TIME OF THE ORIGINAL MERGER....which, of course would be the only legitimate timeframe from which to argue the merits/deficiencies of the Nic.

Now, in either scenario it seems Usapians will be forced, by their own central position at the center of the universe...manifested as an innate disregard of all human ethical concepts excepting where it applies to their own benefit, -to advocate regarding the west as a Johnny-come-lately group who suddenly appeared on the scene at the time of the AA merger....-a group whose star has been falling...a meteoric, arcing plunge over the past 7 years that has seen a base closing and across the board cutbacks and furloughs...all that, of course, having nothing whatsoever to do with anything inside the lofty, rarefied central atmosphere of Usapia...

Seriously though, how will USAPA advocate the placing of its 3rd listers below the west (giving them credit that they will at least recognize the sanity of that move)...and yet pretend that the SLI should be a complete do-over from scratch, starting at the time of the AA merger? It seems the bounds of self-centered hypocrisy stand a good chance of being stretched beyond the historical limits of even usapian rational thought.

Originally Posted by ackattacker

Interesting to me how the West is now claiming that the business decision taken by Doug Parker and his team where dictated by USAPA. USAPA demanded West furloughs? USAPA closed LAS? USAPA put the furloughed West guys on the bottom of the East list, then grieved their own decision, and, uhh, won? So they could impress Judge Silver? Diabolical.

I didn't realize the conspiracy reached to such high levels. Gonna go reread some Dan Brown novels to get into the proper mindset.

Originally Posted by R57 relay

I give you exhibit A, one of those guys that doesn't know what he is talking about.

The very first AGREEMENT was that no SLI would be implemented without a JCBA. PERIOD.

Originally Posted by cactiboss

So how can you even argue the west has different career expectations than the east? Same airline same union.

Originally Posted by ackattacker

Different lists, different contracts continuing into infinity.

One could make the argument that prior to Dec 9th, 2013, the career expectations for East and West was separate operations in perpetuity since there was no clear path forward and no timeframe to resolve the impasse. On that basis the West pilots had no expectations beyond the PHX sandbox and vice versa.

I'm not gonna make that argument. Just pointing out that the argument is there to be made. And it will be made. What the outcome is going to be I won't predict. It's all up to the arbitrators.

Originally Posted by GrapeNuts

Frisco, quit teasing... We'll get 3500 any minute now

Originally Posted by cactiboss

What a GREAT question! Let's brake it down so I don't miss anything


So 3 years after the merger closed and after we had a single operating certificate and we were ONE company, the west furloughed and the east hired pilots that already had an employeee number as pilots at the same company
So usapa having forced the furloughs and then violating it's own constitution, placed the west pilots below new hires on the east for 5 freakin years, decides to move those pilots up the seniority list by their doh on the WEST side in an effort to help their chances in court. Never mind the contract clearly says all third listers are junior to all pre merger pilots Well let's see here, a furloughed west pilot can go east and have better career expectations than the west pilots that were never furloughed and are senior to the furloughed pilot. Now let's not forget that all these pilots work for the same company on the same certificate since before the first west pilot was furloughed, also ignore the fact that every pilot hired post september 2005 is junior to all east/west pilots and placed on a third list.
So how does the west feel by doing a "relative" position integration using dec 2013 positions now that every west pilot has moved backwards and the pilot group is 500 pilots smaller than it was in 2005. In other words west pilot O'dell hired in 2004 has about the same bidding horsepower as a east new hire hired in august of 2014.

I'll answer you with a question. What do you think a reasonable Arbitrator will do with the information above? That is the answer to your question

Originally Posted by flybywire44

I literally just glossed over the last couple pages.

I could not detect any new information that has not already been discussed ad infinitem.

Again and again, same way circular discussions... :roll eyes:

Originally Posted by Xanderman

As if the JCBA was never realized due to some random circumstance? You guys took our union and outnumbered us 2 to 1! We NEVER were going to see a JCBA without the west completely capitulating!




Ya know that sounds so much like; "Hey! I wouldn't have stabbed you if you had just given me your wallet!"