R57 relay

Tell you what sport, go look at 10-Ks and other info. AWA didn't have any money to buy anything. The cash raised by the merger paid off BOTH of the airlines ATSB loans. The ATSB had us by the balls and restricted a large chunk of our cash. Most of the money raised for the merger was done by our CEO, Bruce Lakefield and the Luth group. But don't take my word for it, how about the word of highly respected arbitrator, Mr. Bloch in the US/AW dispatcher SLI, a name you may see again unlike the name Nicolau:

"The Financial Picture
From the evidence, it is clear enough that the merger with AWA was a meaningful factor in U.S. Airway’s emergence from bankruptcy. Together, the two companies were able to attract investments that, operating alone, they might not have secured. However, West’s claim that U.S. Airways emerged from bankruptcy “only because it [was] acquired by a stronger enterprise” is reflected neither in the KPMG audit report (cited by West)nor in any other portion of the evidence. Instead, each carrier had something to contribute. Airways, for example, was much larger. It served almost twice as many destinations as AWA and carried twice the number of passengers. Airways has substantially more cash on hand, following the merger agreement. AWA, for its part, brought.
relative success as a low cost carrier operation with a meaningful presence in the Western United States. Airways’ “fresh start”13 included a series of steps designed to strengthen Airways’ financial situation. Among other things, it entered into concessionary bargaining with its unions, ultimately securing some $1 billion dollars per year in cost reductions. Termination of certain existing defined benefit and other post-retirement benefit plans generated substantial savings. A 35 percent decrease in labor cost taken together with other cost saving measures, resulted in a positive net operating income for the second and third quarters of 2005, prior to approval of the merger agreement in September of 2005. AWA, for its part, while not in bankruptcy, was attempting to confront what it regarded as a troubled and potentially perilous future, absent the merger, in the face of rising fuel costs and depressed unit revenues as a result of over capacity, among other things. It, too, needed cash.
West characterizes the merger decision on AWA’s part as a one-way economic bailout. But there is no support for this in the record; surely, the respective companies did not endorse that view. AWA concluded, according to the statements of its CEO, that “…when we looked out at our future, what we saw wasn’t good…. Assuming we couldn’t go out and restructure or raise cash, it is possible that AWA would have been facing its own Chapter 11 at some point. Employees may like to think we “saved” US but the fact is we saved each other…
The June 10, 2005 issue of “Plane Deal”, an AWA publication, touted some of the benefits of joining fleet forces:
When merged, the combined airline will become the nation’s 5th larges airline, as measured by domestic available seat miles (ASMs). The combined airline is expected to operated a mainline fleet of 361 planes (supported by 239 regional jets and 57 turbo props for feed into the mainline system), down from a total of 419 mainline aircraft operated by both airlines at the beginning of 2005….
In the context of a “Town Hall” Q&A , the company noted
the prospect of a combined airline was more enticing to investors:
The money is being raised for the combined airline, because investors see the value in the merged entity. Frankly, airlines in their current state don’t look appealing to investors, who are savvy to know industry change needs to take place. The proposed merger represents the kind of change that investors believe will be successful. So, unfortunately, we wouldn’t garner this kind of interest if we were seeking funding for America West “as is.”

Much of West’s claimed superiority over East, in terms of what it brought to the merger, is speculative. "

And one other thing he left out, we were a member of the Star Alliance, AWA-none.

It was a meger. US Airways never shutdown. If the bottom AA guy was put below a guy now in indoc, how would AA guys feel after all you have done to keep this airline alive

Frisco, you show me a fact that doesn't add up and I will admit it. The article you posted was from Sept 2004. The AWA merger was announced May 2005. How come we didn't shut the doors? Was that article for negotiating pressure you think? Kinda like some of the things AA management put out a few years ago?

If you want to compare newspaper articles, try this one:

http://old.post-gazette.com/pg/05142/508153.stm

You really, really don't know what you are talking about.

R57 relay

It's not just your opinion, one of the ring leaders of AOL thought the same thing BEFORE the Nic came out with his windfall. A blast from the past:

"Mark my words, this will go exactly like Pan-Am/National. Why? Because the merger is almost a dead-ringer. Because the "unfairness" arguments from the Pan-Am/National merger have already been argued in federal court following the merger and all challenges lost. That means there is already precedent for this sort of integration. It's the safest way out for the arbitrator, the unions (national leadership, of course) and the two airlines. And that's what everyone wants; just dispose of it as soon as possible. Anybody expecting something other than a ratio based on longevity will be disappointed.

But the PanAm-National merger directly applies. And that was straight longevity for the top part of the seniority lists, and then dovetailing for the rest. That's the scenario you outlined above. It's been done before and will be done again.

As for slotting, don't assume it would be one for one or tailed in such a way that the bottom flying UAir guy is paired with the bottom AWA guy. There will be some sort of slotting but consideration will be given to age and longevity as well. I expect the number one UAIR guy on furlough won't be much worse off than the bottom UAIR pilot flying. If he were markedly worse off solely because of his "furlough" status, then we're getting away from fairness and into pure arbitrariness in dictating peoples' lives and careers. The number one guy on furlough all of a sudden falls way behind the bottom flying guy, just ahead of him. Not cool. Make your arguments and let the chips fall where they may. It'll be a subjective, gut instinct decision on the part of the arbitrator, but that is just the way it is and is the best way for all.


But I doubt the furloughees with 15 years of longevity will go to the bottom. My guess on the ultimate integration will be to integrate using a weighted longevity formula. Somebody with fifteen years at U that's now on the street is likely to integrate somewhere around senior AWA f/o or perhaps very junior captain. But that's just a guess.

Given my place, it won't make much of a difference whether there is a dovetail or longevity based integration. I suspect I'd end up right around the 90-91 hires. I'm a somewhat senior f/o by the way.

I'd like to say one more thing about the integration: the focus needs to be on results, not applications. Just because a method is applied uniformly does not make it fair. Lots of ideas seem fair, but all ideas should be put to the test and judged according to the result. It's not fairness in the application we should seek but fairness in the result because it's the result we all have to live with."

I don't have the Nic in front of me, but instead of being place with '91 hires I believe he was placed with '87 hires, a massive, massive difference with the US East demographics.

AirbusFO

Wow--13 Pages before it descended into the same feces that plagues every one of these threads--That is a new record guys--we are getting better!! It's usually 3...

R57 relay

Progress! But, the thread is label NIC, so what did you expect?

Arado 234

Guilty as charged! I haven't seen the AOL update thread so I thought that this could be an adequate substitution.

Flame away!

R57 relay

Nothing to flame about. You had questions and you labeled so guys would know what it about. It takes longer to complain about east/west stuff than it would to just ignore it.

Frisco727

I suppose the arbitrator did not know what he was talking about. I went to the cactuspilot site and read the award. Here's a quote:

"Beyond this, at the time of the merger announcement, US Airways had a significant number of pilots on furlough while America West had none. Moreover, the financial future of US Airways was not comparable to or as bright as that of America West. These factors, as could be predicted, led to great differences In the Parties' concepts of a fair and equitable merger."

You are the equivalent of Joseph Goebbels for USAPA. If US Airways was in such good condition why couldn't Lakefield solve your problems? Why did you need Parker? By suggesting that US Airways was in a better position than it was supports your argument that you got cheated in arbitration. He simply looked at all the facts and made a determination.

Tell the next arbitrator he does not know what he is talking about. See how far you get. If you don't like the results this time, good luck throwing the APA off the property.

R57 relay

So did you even read Bloch's interpretation? No, it doesn't fit your conclusion, so you blow it off.

I've always said that BOTH companies needed the MERGER. US Airways was in bad shape, as was the whole industry. DL and NW both filed chp 11 around then and AWA was being squeezed because they no longer had a huge cost advantage. They weren't thriving prior to all this so it is illogical to think the would during the worst economic situation since the depression.

The point is that US never shutdown, AWA used the money raised as a condition of the merger, not it's own and value wise, yes US brought more. History has made that clear. The merger made the new company much stronger than either could have been, so the splitting of the pilots future by Nic was not right. That's all lost on you, I'm guessing because you have some ax to grind.

There will be no getting around it this time. USAPA only got around it(if it turns out they did) by very special set of circumstances that everyone learned from.

I'm guessing you haven't followed this as well as you think-like most that are full of BS about it. I've said that I disagreed with USAPA's method of dealing with the Nic, but with he TA, I did support staying separate unless we could find a mutual solution.

It's done. Move on. You don't have worry about us as I cannot see a scenario where AA pilot don't come out on top.

crzipilot

From another board. But what's anyone think of this scenario?!? I'm sure the JR AA guys would have no problem with this. JR meaning the bottom 27%?



Using the Nicolau list to combine Us Airways/ America West lists:

That list would result in 1200 East pilots junior to the very bottom West. 4500 total nets save Dave at 27% off the bottom.
(Save Dave was the jr west guy either in trng. Or on probation at time of merger...07?)
Next:

8400 active old American pilots at 27 % ( on a relative merge) nets 2300 active American pilots junior to every West pilot and 1200 additional furloughed American pilots get stapled to the bottom using the Nicolau methodology.

Net result on a combined 3 way list with 12,900 total pilot population puts 4700 American/ Us Airways pilots below the most junior west one.

oncloud

As stand alone Carriers, EVERYTHING a Pilot gets is based on his "relative seniority" within the company.
Weekends off, Christmas vacations, getting off of reserve, upgrading to Captain...the list goes on.
Slotting someone in as you say is trying to give relief for a stagnant career at the Original US Airways and your back to the same thing as DOH.

Y'all remember when United and US Airways were going to merge? United had 2 year upgraded Captains on their United Shuttle Ops...that would have been even uglier than this merger.

Ask the US Airway guys how their career was going before the merger.

In defense of the East gents they should of had fences for their international AND widebody flying for say 10-15 years.

I too am experiencing stagnation..probably be an FO for 25-30 years due to 2 mergers/acquisitions/buyouts....so I can definitely empathize with them!...but I/you also have to keep it real