10 months to 190 Capt
01-27-2014, 11:30 AM
#221
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Nobody has given me a good answer when I ask why the APA would come in and change what is on the table after they are the CBA. Especially if you think it would be the Nic. That would hurt THEM.
01-27-2014, 11:36 AM
#222
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Especially if you think it would be the Nic. That would hurt THEM.
01-27-2014, 11:53 AM
#223
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
If the mess with the MOU they will get a DFR from one side or another. Go by the MOU, their hands are clean.
01-28-2014, 12:23 AM
#224
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 405
I'll tell you what dominates 90% of any SLI talk... that is the mess that is East vs. West, and the Nic award. Every dude I've talked to about it says something like "I wish they'd present one list, not two. The last thing we need is to be involved in E v W crap. Then WE would be painted as the villain, as it is guaranteed that one of the two groups is going to be royally hacked off."
The East and West pilots have never been integrated. We operate under 2 separate lists.
01-28-2014, 10:17 AM
#225
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 29
Guys, please stop with the wild speculation. Not one single APA guy I've talked to (and it's obviously a common topic of conversation) wants to see any sort of staple job.
I'll tell you what dominates 90% of any SLI talk... that is the mess that is East vs. West, and the Nic award. Every dude I've talked to about it says something like "I wish they'd present one list, not two. The last thing we need is to be involved in E v W crap. Then WE would be painted as the villain, as it is guaranteed that one of the two groups is going to be royally hacked off."
I'll tell you what dominates 90% of any SLI talk... that is the mess that is East vs. West, and the Nic award. Every dude I've talked to about it says something like "I wish they'd present one list, not two. The last thing we need is to be involved in E v W crap. Then WE would be painted as the villain, as it is guaranteed that one of the two groups is going to be royally hacked off."
Facts from the NIC list:
There are about 1600 total west pilots on NIC list. Of those 1600, 180 west pilots were placed above east pilots hired prior to 1983...before America west ever flew their first revenue flight.
The following relates to west pilot vs east pilot who is placed one number under the west guy:
319 of the west pilots were not even out of high school when the east pilot one number below him was flying jets for USAir.
226 were in high school (defined as 15 to 18 years old)
93 were in grade school when the east guy one number junior to him was hired. (defined as 1st thru 8th grade)
14 were 11 years old
5 were 10 years old
7 were nine years old when the east guy junior to him was flying jets for the company
None of the above mentioned east guys were furloughed and most had never been furloughed. The above figures do not count the east pilots that were furloughed in 2005 (date of merger and list used for the NIC)
The 2005 hired west pilots are senior to 1988 east hired pilots (Not furloughed)
The 2003 west pilots are slotted in with the never furloughed 1987 hired east pilots
Now having said all that the wests stated goal is to come into the APA merger using the NIC list as published. That would put 2005 hired west F/o's senior to 1988 hired East Captains, and by default would also put them senior to APA Captains in a slotting scenario (Most likely outcome in my opinion) Last I saw the junior Capt. at AA was a 1993 hired MD-80 driver.
This is why I cannot see anything but 3 lists being used for the AA merger and it is also why the MOU was worded the way it is worded.
Anything else is just another 10 year disaster waiting to happen.
Of course the above numbers are never mentioned when a west guy is bashing the east for using every legal way to avoid the NIC award. The contract and the T/A between east and west allowed ALPA and then USAPA to hold the award off. If the tables were turned and it were a straight DOH award the west would have done exactly the same thing the east has done....everything legally possible to negate it.
Sad part is that we should have been able to come to the table years ago and find a middle of the road solution. But the east ALPA had some hard nosed DOH only types on the mec early on, and once the NIC award was published the west has refused to say anything except "NIC is it"
Stalemate.
01-28-2014, 10:38 AM
#226
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: Bent Over
Posts: 96
The following is why we cannot get a single list for USAirways:
Facts from the NIC list:
There are about 1600 total west pilots on NIC list. Of those 1600, 180 west pilots were placed above east pilots hired prior to 1983...before America west ever flew their first revenue flight.
The following relates to west pilot vs east pilot who is placed one number under the west guy:
319 of the west pilots were not even out of high school when the east pilot one number below him was flying jets for USAir.
226 were in high school (defined as 15 to 18 years old)
93 were in grade school when the east guy one number junior to him was hired. (defined as 1st thru 8th grade)
14 were 11 years old
5 were 10 years old
7 were nine years old when the east guy junior to him was flying jets for the company
None of the above mentioned east guys were furloughed and most had never been furloughed. The above figures do not count the east pilots that were furloughed in 2005 (date of merger and list used for the NIC)
The 2005 hired west pilots are senior to 1988 east hired pilots (Not furloughed)
The 2003 west pilots are slotted in with the never furloughed 1987 hired east pilots
Now having said all that the wests stated goal is to come into the APA merger using the NIC list as published. That would put 2005 hired west F/o's senior to 1988 hired East Captains, and by default would also put them senior to APA Captains in a slotting scenario (Most likely outcome in my opinion) Last I saw the junior Capt. at AA was a 1993 hired MD-80 driver.
This is why I cannot see anything but 3 lists being used for the AA merger and it is also why the MOU was worded the way it is worded.
Anything else is just another 10 year disaster waiting to happen.
Of course the above numbers are never mentioned when a west guy is bashing the east for using every legal way to avoid the NIC award. The contract and the T/A between east and west allowed ALPA and then USAPA to hold the award off. If the tables were turned and it were a straight DOH award the west would have done exactly the same thing the east has done....everything legally possible to negate it.
Sad part is that we should have been able to come to the table years ago and find a middle of the road solution. But the east ALPA had some hard nosed DOH only types on the mec early on, and once the NIC award was published the west has refused to say anything except "NIC is it"
Stalemate.
Facts from the NIC list:
There are about 1600 total west pilots on NIC list. Of those 1600, 180 west pilots were placed above east pilots hired prior to 1983...before America west ever flew their first revenue flight.
The following relates to west pilot vs east pilot who is placed one number under the west guy:
319 of the west pilots were not even out of high school when the east pilot one number below him was flying jets for USAir.
226 were in high school (defined as 15 to 18 years old)
93 were in grade school when the east guy one number junior to him was hired. (defined as 1st thru 8th grade)
14 were 11 years old
5 were 10 years old
7 were nine years old when the east guy junior to him was flying jets for the company
None of the above mentioned east guys were furloughed and most had never been furloughed. The above figures do not count the east pilots that were furloughed in 2005 (date of merger and list used for the NIC)
The 2005 hired west pilots are senior to 1988 east hired pilots (Not furloughed)
The 2003 west pilots are slotted in with the never furloughed 1987 hired east pilots
Now having said all that the wests stated goal is to come into the APA merger using the NIC list as published. That would put 2005 hired west F/o's senior to 1988 hired East Captains, and by default would also put them senior to APA Captains in a slotting scenario (Most likely outcome in my opinion) Last I saw the junior Capt. at AA was a 1993 hired MD-80 driver.
This is why I cannot see anything but 3 lists being used for the AA merger and it is also why the MOU was worded the way it is worded.
Anything else is just another 10 year disaster waiting to happen.
Of course the above numbers are never mentioned when a west guy is bashing the east for using every legal way to avoid the NIC award. The contract and the T/A between east and west allowed ALPA and then USAPA to hold the award off. If the tables were turned and it were a straight DOH award the west would have done exactly the same thing the east has done....everything legally possible to negate it.
Sad part is that we should have been able to come to the table years ago and find a middle of the road solution. But the east ALPA had some hard nosed DOH only types on the mec early on, and once the NIC award was published the west has refused to say anything except "NIC is it"
Stalemate.
Thanks for your clear post, I have always wondered what the East pilots found so inequitable about the Nic. you made it very clear.
Lets hope a middle road can be found for the 3 lists.
Either way I will be on the bottom.
01-28-2014, 11:28 AM
#227
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
The apfa will be taking over for afa in the next 40 days, expect the apa to benefit with an even faster takeover than originally planed. The apa as your rep will be able to do as they please thanks to usapa's case law, they can modify the mou at will and you won't be able to sue until a final list is in place, again, thank usapa for the case law.
01-28-2014, 12:14 PM
#228
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Posts: 131
The following is why we cannot get a single list for USAirways:
Facts from the NIC list:
There are about 1600 total west pilots on NIC list. Of those 1600, 180 west pilots were placed above east pilots hired prior to 1983...before America west ever flew their first revenue flight.
The following relates to west pilot vs east pilot who is placed one number under the west guy:
319 of the west pilots were not even out of high school when the east pilot one number below him was flying jets for USAir.
226 were in high school (defined as 15 to 18 years old)
93 were in grade school when the east guy one number junior to him was hired. (defined as 1st thru 8th grade)
14 were 11 years old
5 were 10 years old
7 were nine years old when the east guy junior to him was flying jets for the company
None of the above mentioned east guys were furloughed and most had never been furloughed. The above figures do not count the east pilots that were furloughed in 2005 (date of merger and list used for the NIC)
The 2005 hired west pilots are senior to 1988 east hired pilots (Not furloughed)
The 2003 west pilots are slotted in with the never furloughed 1987 hired east pilots
Now having said all that the wests stated goal is to come into the APA merger using the NIC list as published. That would put 2005 hired west F/o's senior to 1988 hired East Captains, and by default would also put them senior to APA Captains in a slotting scenario (Most likely outcome in my opinion) Last I saw the junior Capt. at AA was a 1993 hired MD-80 driver.
This is why I cannot see anything but 3 lists being used for the AA merger and it is also why the MOU was worded the way it is worded.
Anything else is just another 10 year disaster waiting to happen.
Of course the above numbers are never mentioned when a west guy is bashing the east for using every legal way to avoid the NIC award. The contract and the T/A between east and west allowed ALPA and then USAPA to hold the award off. If the tables were turned and it were a straight DOH award the west would have done exactly the same thing the east has done....everything legally possible to negate it.
Sad part is that we should have been able to come to the table years ago and find a middle of the road solution. But the east ALPA had some hard nosed DOH only types on the mec early on, and once the NIC award was published the west has refused to say anything except "NIC is it"
Stalemate.
Facts from the NIC list:
There are about 1600 total west pilots on NIC list. Of those 1600, 180 west pilots were placed above east pilots hired prior to 1983...before America west ever flew their first revenue flight.
The following relates to west pilot vs east pilot who is placed one number under the west guy:
319 of the west pilots were not even out of high school when the east pilot one number below him was flying jets for USAir.
226 were in high school (defined as 15 to 18 years old)
93 were in grade school when the east guy one number junior to him was hired. (defined as 1st thru 8th grade)
14 were 11 years old
5 were 10 years old
7 were nine years old when the east guy junior to him was flying jets for the company
None of the above mentioned east guys were furloughed and most had never been furloughed. The above figures do not count the east pilots that were furloughed in 2005 (date of merger and list used for the NIC)
The 2005 hired west pilots are senior to 1988 east hired pilots (Not furloughed)
The 2003 west pilots are slotted in with the never furloughed 1987 hired east pilots
Now having said all that the wests stated goal is to come into the APA merger using the NIC list as published. That would put 2005 hired west F/o's senior to 1988 hired East Captains, and by default would also put them senior to APA Captains in a slotting scenario (Most likely outcome in my opinion) Last I saw the junior Capt. at AA was a 1993 hired MD-80 driver.
This is why I cannot see anything but 3 lists being used for the AA merger and it is also why the MOU was worded the way it is worded.
Anything else is just another 10 year disaster waiting to happen.
Of course the above numbers are never mentioned when a west guy is bashing the east for using every legal way to avoid the NIC award. The contract and the T/A between east and west allowed ALPA and then USAPA to hold the award off. If the tables were turned and it were a straight DOH award the west would have done exactly the same thing the east has done....everything legally possible to negate it.
Sad part is that we should have been able to come to the table years ago and find a middle of the road solution. But the east ALPA had some hard nosed DOH only types on the mec early on, and once the NIC award was published the west has refused to say anything except "NIC is it"
Stalemate.
01-28-2014, 12:18 PM
#229
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 29
As you say, there are two ways to looking at everything. Thus the 9 year stalemate and the reason that 3 lists going into the APA merger is probably the only way out.
01-28-2014, 12:41 PM
#230
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
AOL will bluff, threaten, and squeal...and magnify same of others, all to increase the gravy train donations, but in the end it will be a three way via relative position, and everyone will claim "the other guys lost."
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