10 months to 190 Capt
01-23-2014, 06:30 PM
#171
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
It was you who compared the Nic to AA flow-thru issues and mixed the two together, not I. How could I consider you biased about the FT when you know nothing about it ?
Ah yes, the old "Loser RJ pilot" attack has now been expanded to simply a blanket "loser pilot" assault. Like I said, I've heard this attack before from Usapians and they seem to think it becomes more impressive over time. It doesn't. It DOES serve a useful purpose though. It indicates bias by someone who classifies others based on where they came from as opposed to who they are and exposes this person to others so they can make their own better assessment of their character and thus their credibility. You imply I'm the latter by the "ring a bell ?" crack, but you don't know me personally, don't know how I interview, how I fly or how I train. Likewise, I could fly with a few East pilots and prejudge them assuming they are all like you and wonder the same things about all East pilots (as opposed to Usapians), but that would just reflect the same misguided assumption and error in judgement you exhibit.
I'm hopeful and somewhat confident most East pilots AREN'T like you. For the sake of the future of AA, I sincerely hope I'm correct.
Ah yes, the old "Loser RJ pilot" attack has now been expanded to simply a blanket "loser pilot" assault. Like I said, I've heard this attack before from Usapians and they seem to think it becomes more impressive over time. It doesn't. It DOES serve a useful purpose though. It indicates bias by someone who classifies others based on where they came from as opposed to who they are and exposes this person to others so they can make their own better assessment of their character and thus their credibility. You imply I'm the latter by the "ring a bell ?" crack, but you don't know me personally, don't know how I interview, how I fly or how I train. Likewise, I could fly with a few East pilots and prejudge them assuming they are all like you and wonder the same things about all East pilots (as opposed to Usapians), but that would just reflect the same misguided assumption and error in judgement you exhibit.
I'm hopeful and somewhat confident most East pilots AREN'T like you. For the sake of the future of AA, I sincerely hope I'm correct.
Do worry about east pilots, the new AA will be just fine. But, since you don't know me, what is the basis for your concern?
Are you from the south? If so you will know that this means-Bless Your Heart.
01-23-2014, 06:40 PM
#172
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Aww sweetie, did I hit a nerve? You can run your mouth about something your really don't know about, but don't like having it thrown back at you, do you?
Do worry about east pilots, the new AA will be just fine. But, since you don't know me, what is the basis for your concern?
Are you from the south? If so you will know that this means-Bless Your Heart.
Do worry about east pilots, the new AA will be just fine. But, since you don't know me, what is the basis for your concern?
Are you from the south? If so you will know that this means-Bless Your Heart.
How 'bout you ?
Northern or Southern USAPA ?
One of the moons perhaps ?
01-23-2014, 09:45 PM
#174
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 188
01-24-2014, 04:19 AM
#175
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Posts: 131
In one paragraph you are speaking about the FT and then say you won't listen to me for the facts. But I'm supposed to understand that in your world you weren't talking about my facts as they apply to the FT. 
Got it. What planet are you from? You are worried with being right, not what is right.
I've had one experience with a FT. We took pilots from our two of our wholly-owned to MDA. I've flown with quite a few of them and found most to be great. A few though, well let's just say it's good they didn't have to interview. I can't see how they ever passed the one at the regionals. Ring a bell?
Got it. What planet are you from? You are worried with being right, not what is right.
I've had one experience with a FT. We took pilots from our two of our wholly-owned to MDA. I've flown with quite a few of them and found most to be great. A few though, well let's just say it's good they didn't have to interview. I can't see how they ever passed the one at the regionals. Ring a bell?
01-24-2014, 04:43 AM
#176
Flies With The Hat On
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Right of the Left Seat
Posts: 1,339
Narrow body fences are not ideal. They are bad for commuters and their families. Has anyone ever noticed that Delta did not use any narrow body fences? United didn't and American won't have them either as fences hurt the company and take away from near-term JCBA gain.
Yes, Third-List pilots are enjoying amazing movement, but I would not be worried about AA pilots lowering our seniority. Godzilla is right. All Third-List pilots go below West pilots—it's their flying. The merry go round is still spinning with potentially enough time for every Third-List pilot to bid an aircraft stay on it for 18 months and then bid another a second aircraft.
Don't set your expectations unrealistically. It is best to bite the bullet now, save the company money (we'll get some too...), and give more people the option of being home based.
Good morning.
Yes, Third-List pilots are enjoying amazing movement, but I would not be worried about AA pilots lowering our seniority. Godzilla is right. All Third-List pilots go below West pilots—it's their flying. The merry go round is still spinning with potentially enough time for every Third-List pilot to bid an aircraft stay on it for 18 months and then bid another a second aircraft.
Don't set your expectations unrealistically. It is best to bite the bullet now, save the company money (we'll get some too...), and give more people the option of being home based.
Good morning.
01-24-2014, 05:32 AM
#177
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
01-24-2014, 06:04 AM
#178
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
From the MOU:
"h. US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for changing the seniority listS currently in effect at US Airways other than through the process set forth in this Paragraph 10."
So, what's "in effect" mean? To me it means in use. The listS in use today at US Airways are the east system seniority list and the west system seniority list. The Nicolau seniority list has never been used for anything and same goes for USAPA's proposed DOH list.
I'm going to give you some background and supporting evidence for my POV.
Here's an interesting paragraph in the MOU:
"i. Nothing in this Paragraph 10 shall modify the decision of the arbitration panel in Letter of
Agreement 12-05 of the 2012 CBA."
Hmmm....the AA arbitration was specially included, but the Nicoalu award was not.
Here's where we are today:
"f. A Seniority Integration Protocol Agreement ("Protocol Agreement") consistent withMcCaskill-Bond and this Paragraph 10 will be agreed upon within 30 days of the Effective Date. The Protocol Agreement will set forth the process and protocol for conducting negotiations and arbitration, if applicable, and will include a methodology for allocating the reimbursement provided for in Paragraph 7. The company(ies) will be parties to the arbitration, if any, in accordance with McCaskill-Bond. The company(ies) shall provide information requested by the merger representatives for use in the arbitration, if any, in accordance with requirements of McCaskill-Bond, provided that theinformation is relevant to the issues involved in the arbitration, and the requests are reasonable and do not impose undue burden or expense, and so long as the merger representatives agree to appropriate confidentiality terms. "
Consistent with, and merger representatives. That's interesting, merger representatives and not collective bargaining agents.
Now, Judge Silver's ruling was lenghty and provided some dicta that a lot of people are reading a lot of different ways. But here are the actual compaints and orders. See what you think, but notice where the west pilots filed the lawsuit because the Nicolau award was ABANDONED and she ruled that wasn't a failure of USAPA's DFR.
Plaintiffs Amended Complaint Doc 134:
I. Claim One: Breach of the Duty of Fair Representation
96. Plaintiffs re-allege each and every allegation set forth above as
if fully set forth herein.
97. Pursuant to the duty of fair representation, USAPA must have a
legitimate union purpose to use anything other than the Nicolau Award
list to integrate East Pilots and West Pilots.
98. USAPA does not have a legitimate union purpose to use
anything other than the Nicolau Award list to integrate East Pilots and
West Pilots.
99. USAPA, therefore, breached the duty of fair representation by
entering into the MOU because the MOU abandons a duty to treat the
Nicolau Award as final and binding.
100. Plaintiffs are entitled to a declaratory judgment to that effect
and to other remedy sought below.
Judge said: "IT IS FURTHER ORDERED the Clerk of Court is directed to enter judgment in
favor of Defendant US Airline Pilots Association on Count I"
II. Claim Two: Breach of Transition Agreement by US Airways
101. Plaintiffs re-allege each and every allegation set forth above as
if fully set forth herein and reallege this Claim, which was dismissed by
the Court [Doc. 122], solely to preserve their rights to appeal that ruling.
102. The Transition Agreement had an implied covenant of good
faith and fair dealing.
103. The Transition Agreement envisioned a “Single Agreement” that
would be made by US Airways and USAPA that would replace material
terms in the separate contracts governing the employment of the West
Pilots (the West CBA) and the East Pilots (the east CBA).
104. That implied covenant constrained the terms of the Single
Agreement such that it could not provide materially improved wages for
US Airways pilots (East and West) without also providing terms needed to
integrate pilot operations consistent with the Transition Agreement.
105. The MOU is a single agreement that provides materially
improved wages for US Airways pilots (East and West).
106. The MOU fails to provide terms needed to integrate pilot
operations.
107. The Transition Agreement requires that pilot seniority will be
implemented using to the integrated seniority list created according to
ALPA Merger Policy and accepted by US Airways – the Nicolau Award list.
108. The MOU fails to provide that pilot seniority will be
implemented using the Nicolau Award list.
109. Based on the forgoing, adopting the MOU is a breach of the
Transition Agreement implied covenant.
110. Despite vigorous protests by the West Pilots, USAPA refuses to
assert breach of the Transition Agreement implied covenant.
111. This Court, consequently, has hybrid jurisdiction to hear this
implied covenant claim that would otherwise be a minor dispute subject
to system board arbitration.
112. Plaintiffs are entitled to a declaratory judgment that the MOU is
a breach of the Transition Agreement implied covenant by US Airways.
Judge said: "IT IS FURTHER ORDERED the Clerk of Court is directed to enter judgment in
favor of US Airways, Inc. on Count II"
III. Claim Three: Attorneys’ Fees
113. Plaintiffs re-allege each and every allegation set forth above as
if fully set forth herein.
114. USAPA has several million dollars in reserve collected as dues
and agency fees from all US Airways Pilots.
115. Plaintiffs brought this action and the 2008 action and appeared
as defendants in the 2010 action to vindicate the right of all US Airways
pilots to fair representation by USAPA.
116. By obtaining the rulings in the 2008 and 2010 actions and by
prevailing in this action, Plaintiffs conferred a substantial benefit on all
US Airways Pilots.
117. Under common benefit doctrine, the expenses of achieving
those benefits should, in all fairness, be spread among all those who so
benefitted.
118. The expenses of achieving those benefits would be fairly spread
among all US Airways Pilots if paid by USAPA
119.The Court should, therefore, make an award in favor of
Plaintiffs and against USAPA for all reasonable litigation expenses,
including attorneys’ fees incurred bringing this action, incurred by
Plaintiffs in the actions noted above.
Judge said: "IT IS FURTHER ORDERED the Clerk of Court is directed to enter a judgment of dismissal without prejudice on
Count III"
IV. Claim Four: Declaratory Claim
120. Plaintiffs re-allege each and every allegation set forth above as
if fully set forth herein.
121. McCaskill-Bond provides that employees affected by an airline
merger have the right to a fair and equitable seniority integration.
122. The West Pilots are employees affected by the US Airways-
American Airlines merger.
123. In the process of obtaining a fair and equitable seniority
integration of the US Airways and American Airlines pilots that will
commence soon after AMR’s Petition of Reorganization is approved and
final (hereinafter the “MOU Seniority Integration”), which is expected to
occur within approximately the next two months, USAPA and its
representatives and counsel are bound by USAPA’s constitution to
advance a date-of-hire seniority order for US Airways pilots.
124. The West Pilots have an interest to see proper implementation
of the Nicolau Award seniority list in the course of the MOU Seniority
Integration.
125. USAPA and its representatives and counsel have an unwaivable
conflict of interest with the West Pilots in regard to seniority integration.
126. USAPA and its representatives and counsel, therefore, cannot
fairly represent the West Pilot’s interests in the course of the MOU
Seniority Integration.
127. The West Pilots contend that they have the right to fully
participate in each phase of the MOU Seniority Integration process. (Doc.
97 at 5:23 to 5:25.)
128. US Airways also contends that the West Pilots have the right to
participate fully (with counsel of their own choice) in the MOU Seniority
Integration process and that such participation will promote a more
effective process. (Doc. 98 at 1:6 to 1:10.)
129. USAPA contends that the West Pilots have no legitimate right to
participate in any phase of the Airways-American McCaskill-Bond
process. (Doc. 95 at 10:17 to 11:6.)
130. There is a substantial controversy, therefore, between the West
Pilots and USAPA as to whether the West Pilots have a right to
participate in the MOU Seniority Integration process.
131. Consequently, there is a substantial controversy, between
parties having adverse legal interests, of sufficient immediacy and reality
to warrant the issuance of a declaratory judgment.
132. The West Pilots are entitled, pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 2201, to
an order declaring that they have party status and the right (but not the
obligation) to participate fully (with counsel of their own choice) in the
MOU Seniority Integration process.
Judge said: "IT IS FURTHER ORDERED the Clerk of Court is directed to enter judgment in
favor of Defendant US Airline Pilots Association on Count IV"
Finally, USAPA President Gary Humel gave a sworn deposition to west lawyers and it was entered into evidence on Sept 17, 2013. In it he says that that 10h was included because Scott Kirby said that we wouldn't settle the east/west dispute before the merger. That we would have to settle through a MB type process. That's what's in the MOU and it's what all parties agreed to.
.· ·"So at that meeting Dave Bates, his
·· overriding concern was on how USAPA was going to
·· handle their current seniority integration issue
· and would that be handled prior to any merger with
11· American.· And that concern was answered by Scott
12· Kirby, who made it perfectly clear that we weren't
13· going to deal with seniority in any way, shape or
14· form, that the McCaskill-Bond process would allow
15· us to deal with that at a later date, that we would
16· be able to work towards an MOU provided that there
17· was no discussion on seniority and that the
18· seniority issue would be dealt with after the
19· merger."
Sorry about the format, there are some hidden characters in there that won't let me clean it up.
01-24-2014, 07:29 AM
#180
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
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