Wiskey Driver

No young man you are comparing apples to oranges. The government and LCC management had no agreement prior to LCC entering into talks with AMR. I understand where it is you think you are trying to go but this is not the example to use in an effort to get your point across.

I try to use the most basic examples I can so as to be clear to everyone. This is why I often use the casino analogy. One has no expectation of walking into a casino and walking out a winner. There is a certain amount of risk involved with placing bets, when you win the house pays without question or fight and by that same token they expect the same from players.

The sides east and west knew the risks prior to going into arbitration. Every effort was made to explain to our pilot group those risks. There was no time ever where the west MEC attempted to manage the expectations of our pilot group. There were many within the west that said settle for nothing less than a staple of their pilots to the bottom of our list seeing as how we brought jobs, money and a healthy carrier at the time this party while the east brought bankruptcy and furloughs.

The time was given at the end of the presentations of both side to cool off so to speak. To my knowledge this had never been done in the history of aviation seniority arbitration cases. This was done at the behest of the arbitrator. The west merger committee was then given instructions to find that room and offer better than a staple job. The east however had no change what so ever to their original proposal of strict date of hire. Now after the fact they were more than willing to explore other ideas but to that our question was WHERE WAS THIS BEFORE ARBITRATION??

It was more than clear to us that the east would have taken DOH and rammed that right up our collective rears with the side notes of "this is how its done" and "we agreed to go to arbitration so its over"!!

It is nothing short of insulting coming after the fact demanding that we bend or else which is how usapa came here. I have very little respect for most in the east and zero of the angry f/o club.

WD at AWA

justjack

I can see how that would be the case. I talk about this very little, if any, at work. I would hope most pilots leave all of this at home. If I had my way it would not be discussed at work. But for sure nothing has happened in a vacuum and it is a shame that we work in an environment where, "Everybody seems to have lost." As to who has lost more - it truly has been a race to the bottom. Hopefully things will turn around and the next generation will do better.

cactiboss

And you can thank the east pilots for that.

justjack

If you are going to blame deregulation and 9/11 on the East pilots, there's no point in even "discussing" this anymore.

R57 relay

You're welcome, anything I can do, let me know.

I'm curious D, how long have you been here? Did you know of the east/west battle when you took the job? Did you have a chance to read the contract that you would be working under? What did you expect by now?

The Drizzle

Short enough to be a 3rd lister. Long enough to predate the merger talk or MOUs.

I did know of the east/west battle. I said this elsewhere on this forum that what I hadn't been able to appreciate without experiencing it for myself is the mania of both sides. It a fight between unreasonable parties.

Not in its entirety, to be honest. I'm not sure if you can appreciate how arcane the contract plus LOAs seem from the outside. The things that bother me or surprised me aren't the obvious like the pay, we all know the pay and we all complain. On paper, this contract is far worse than the one I had worked under at my low-tier regional but in practice it's been a much better life for me. That said, I get f-ed over far more often by my fellow pilots than I do the company(R Reserve).

By now? I can't answer that. What I expected from the beginning was to work with professionals. For the most part I get that in the flight deck. I can't say that's what I get on the union or east/west front.

What I expect going forward is one of two outcomes, the first being the merger being defended successfully and me move on down the road getting paid well under the welcome(to me) boot print of the APA on our necks. The second is more of the same with no contract improvement in sight because it isn't in the interest of management or the current majority of pilots. How long should I wait to hedge my bets? How long would you wait if you were in my position?

R57 relay

Thanks for the honest and well though out response. It makes your other posts easier to take, and I must say I'm a little surprised. I've been kind of hard on you based on a long ago series of posts, and maybe too hard. I apologize.

I can't disagree on anything you posted, especially the screwed over by fellow pilots thing. Being on reserve you see that a lot, from the top to bottom of the seniority list.

I can understand how arcane the contract and LOAs are, but probably accept it a little more because I know why it has worked out that way.

If we don't merge I think we are 1-2 years out of a contract. The 9th DJ appeal may have some guidance for us.

I can't tell you how long I'd wait, as obviously I've held out a long time. So much of it depends on your personal situation. I had young kids for much of our rough patches and I had enough seniority to have a decent life as a F/O. While looking at other options in 2004-05 I decided it was best to stick it our here, and live with the outcome no matter what. I know guys that have left here and done great, others that kick themselves every day. A guy just junior to me left in 2005 for America West-bad move no matter how you cut it, but he made the decision with the best information he had at the time.

Good luck and hopefully your decision will be made easier by the courts soon. You have to weigh the good and the bad, but if the bad side of the ledger is full, try to go somewhere that make you happy.

flybywire44

Young man? Now you sound like an East pilot! Ironic.

It must be hard not to turn this into another AOL update.

Cacti, nothing?

Wiskey Driver

It was me that said young man and I use this term to many that are in fact young. If you are under 50 you are a young man to me!

WD at AWA

flybywire44

Yes it was you... I meant to quote your post!