Upsddown

Guys don't read too much into PRS Guitars response. He is either relatively new to the major airline industry or just a negative individual.

AA contract is lagging? It's was a BK carrier contract. Next round of negotiations starts in three years. Just like every carrier, who knows when we will be getting a new one but if your just starting and you have the typical 30 year horizon you will see numerous new contracts over your career.
Stick around this industry long enough and you'll see your airline on top, on bottom and everywhere in between at some point. Just ask all the guys who wanted to go to SWA in the last decade because they were on top. Things change often in this industry.

So why does Guitar say it's so negative?

Is it because our current contract pay rates lag UALs by 3-5%? Or that our pay rates exceed DAL, SWA, FedEx, UPS, JBLU, Spirit and Alaska? Or is because our profit sharing lags almost all the others?

Is it because your first year pay will be slightly higher at AA than at DAL, FedEx or UPS but slightly lower than UAL?

Is it because AA has the highest pension contribution percentage in the industry along with UAL (16%). Or because SWA has a 9.8% contribution, DAL a 15%, Alaska a 13.5% and JetBlue a 13%?

Is it because when you put together your entire compensation package (pay, profit sharing and pension) AA slightly lags DAL and UAL (for now) but exceeds everyone else of the passenger carriers.

Is it because at AA you can fly a A330, 777 or 787 internationally for $300 an hour as a Captain while SWA, JetBlue, Spirit and Alaska only fly narrow body aircraft?

Is it because AA is the largest airline in the world and along with DAL and UAL fly to most major international destinations?

Is it because as an FO at DAL and UAL pilots will make 36 cents an hour more than you on international pay (for now)?

Is it because we have very similar scope clauses yet on a percentage basis, DAL and UAL fly more regionals than AA (for now)?

Is it because at American you can sell back your vacation (for those who want to work that much) and make another 10% in pay while DAL and UAL don't have that provision? Or how about getting paid half your sick time each year for another 30 hours a year? Not advocating either, just pointing out some of the horrible things Guitar has to put up with that could improve AA take home pay by 15% a year for those that want to grind it out (not me).

Is it because AA has similar trip rigs than DAL and UAL? Or is it because DAL has a better minimum day?

Is it because AA has 9,000 pilots that retire in the next ten years? Or that DAL has 6,200, UAL 5,000, UPS 1,000 and FedEx 2,000?

You see if you dig through every airline there are good points and bad. AA went into BK in 2012. UAL went into BK in 2002 and DAL in 2005.
It's even amazing that AA would be considered by anyone given it is working under a BK contract while UAL and DAL are on their second or third post BK contract. The reason it's being considered is the contract isn't perfect but it's still one of the all around near tops in the industry and like DAL and UAL it's only going to improve with each new round just like DAL and UAL did.

There is a reason that every AA pilot who has a kid that is flying in the military or flying in a civilian job is trying to get their kid onto AA.

The reason? Because unlike Guitar, the pilots who have been around this industry long enough know that things will change. The gap amongst the legacy carriers, AA, DAL, UAL, SWA, FedEx and UPS will only decrease.
And each cycle someone else will leap frog the other to become the best.

I remember when Pan Am used to be the best. TWA. Braniff. Eastern. AA. UAL. SWA. And today some say DAL.
Stick around long enough and the order will change.

So with all due respect, I'll disagree with Guitar. I always wonder if it's that bad why guys like him don't make the leap themselves. Would you rather be more senior with a miserable carrier or junior for a period of time with a great carrier?

If any of you are making a decision on an occupation that you will be in for 30-40 years based on the details of a BK contract today and not the outlook for the prospects of tomorrow you really are looking at this shortsighted. This is one roller coaster of a career. Look to the future. Find the carrier that fits you. Bases. Aircraft. Routes. Growth. Retirements. Don't just look at today's contract it's the wrong thing to focus on. Just ask the AA pilots that were hired in 1984 under their B-scale and that checked out as 767 Captains at age 30 and 777 Captains at age 40 (was told the APA President is a perfect example). Then look at the pilots who in 1984 went to all the others. Eastern gone. Pan Am gone. TWA gone (stapled at AA). UAL failed ESOP lost pension money. UAL terminated pension. DAL terminated pension and as a result mass exodus of their pilots who were age 50 because they didn't want to lose their lump sum. Look at ourselves. Multiple BKs and terminated pensions.

So using Guitars logic, which carrier would he have been telling you to go to in 1984? AA with a b-scale? Or Eastern and Pan Am the industry leaders?

DAL, UAL, AA and SWA are all great airlines. Go for the one that is right for you and realize each will face its own set of challenges during your career.

Adanac

Wow. That was an incredible response.

Thank you for the detailed and patient rebuttle. That's exactly what i have heard from every major airline pilot whose been in the industry for many years, just with far more detail.

Someone told me recently... "You won't know which airline was the correct decision until you retire, look back, and wipe the sweat from your brow"

PRS Guitars

Upsddown,

Man that was pretty verbose given my original comment. Did you see the part where I said "I'm trying not to be cynical".

I've been cautiously optimistic and still am for many of the reasons you sight, plus I'm at the top of the Constructive Notice New Hire list which seems like a good place to be.

These new reserve rules coming with the JCBA are a kick in the balls though (and yes I'm new to the airline industry). I just learned today that when they fly us into our day off (before noon), they don't have to give us back that day off or pay us premium (I have yet to confirm this). It put me in a bad mood...

Cheddar

^^^ yep, that's true. It's kind of a day off. One of 1,000 QWL items to fix!


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Upsddown

They told you correct. I have friends at every airline. During my career each of us has worked at the best, at one point or another.

It's a different industry. The big four, FedEx, UPS and a few of the others will provide you with a great career. Bears working in a cubicle five days a week.

Upsddown

Every pilot served their time at the bottom. It wasn't ever fun. Change isn't fun either (JCBA). But for all the bad, the good throughout your career will overshadow it. Ask Vendetta on the other end of the list who works 6 days a month and makes $280,000 a year how much he hates working.

You don't realize how good you have it (not talking about today) about your career. Don't know your age but if your not a grandpa your going to start rocketing up the list in a few years. Took many FOs nearly 25 years to become a Captain to make $150,000 a year. You on the other hand will be a Captain within the decade making $250,000 or more and a WB Captain in 20 years making $300,000 plus. There will be crappy days but in the end it will be a good career. Your glass of water will leak often but it's up to you to determine whether its half full or half empty.

I just hate to see pilots yearning for information so they can make an educated decision about their future
being told to go elsewhere because someone who works here had a bad day. This guys/girls are trying to make some serious decisions.

Not a reserve guy but I think you are wrong about your day off. Read Question 15-7 on page Section 15-42 of the JCBA. As I said before, knowing your contract will make your career so much better and less stressful. No it's not easy to learn but it will determine your livelihood for the next several decades.

DCA A321 FO

Actually started off on the (bottom) DC9 out of DCA and had a blast. Sometimes the crew would hit the sports bar in Crystal City after a trip.

fartsarefunny

15:J:11:h......essentially they have to add back the hours worked into your DFP back at end of DFP begun after extended flying into DFP. DFP periods are from midnight to midnight so if you were hypothetically flown into your DFP until noon they would have to add 12 hours to your DFP. Truly confusing...part 117 converted everything we knew from days to hours....

Upsddown

Funny,

You may have experience with this, I don't. So you probably know more but according to the question concerning this the added time to his duty period starts "after" his debrief period and his 12 hour rest break. If that is true he would have almost a full day at the back end. Example: blocks in at 11:30 am on first DFP day. Has 15 debrief, then gets 12 hours off (now 11:45 pm) then he starts his required DFPs.

Not sure if that's correct but that's how the question reads. The more illustrative point is that new or unknowing pilots are guessing about their contract or going on hearsay instead of trying to get the facts. At the very least if they won't take the time to learn themselves call APA for the answer.

We all complain how the schedulers are violating the contract because they don't understand it but we are just as guilty.

andrewtac

I almost replies as well. There are some things I really want to see changed as well. However, I might add to why the reply l. As a someone who didn't work around airline pilots and never considered it until recently I came here for gouge. I remember reading very polar arguments from folks. Also some very negative stuff about nearly every airline. It is hard to pick though the anger and bitterness some folks hold onto (not saying you are, but many on here are and you might have hit a nerve). I've read your post and I think one might have even persuaded me to quit pursuing other options (can't remember). Anyways I heard a bit about how horrible the AA contact was, and then I saw an actual contact comparison; it wasn't far off from the others and better in some aspects. Like I said there are some things I'd like to change and I hope we fight for them. Overall no regrets and glad I dug my hills in and quit looking elsewhere; right decision, won't know for 20+ years probably. Biggest advice I can give is find an airline that has a domicile you want to live at for the rest of your working career.