AOL update
03-16-2013, 03:43 PM
#531
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
Your old man mind has failed you. See above.
But as for your rant about "the east's fault", let's look at the 190 issue. You said "E190's either they came later after the merger for which the east has stolen every single seat!" Stolen Really? The E190s went where they did as a result of, wait for it, ARBITRATION!!!! From a whiney west resolution wanting your seats now despite the conditions for getting them not being met:
"WHEREAS Arbitrator Eischen was selected to determine the fair and equitable allocation of EMB-190 aircraft as between AAA and AWA. Hearings were held over August 1 and 2, 2006. The opinion (“Eischen Award”) was published on September 5th, 2006. Arbitrator Eischen determined one-third of the new flying generated by the fifty-seven (57) EMB-190 aircraft was the fair and equitable share for the AWA pilots, however, the AWA pilots would not be afforded any EMB-190 positions until after Operational Integration; in Arbitrator Eischen’s words, his Award represented “IOUs” to the West". Integrity in action, again.
I'm sure you can provide a link to where US couldn't get financing for CRJs. Then tell me how the entire Mid Atlantic fleet of EMB 170s made it here.
Here are a couple other links for you. Education is a great thing. You should avail yourself to it. I'll be here to help when ever you need it, don't hesitate to ask.
http://old.post-gaze...2/508153-28.stm
http://jamhoff.com/PDFs/ArbitratorDecisionAward.pdf
But as for your rant about "the east's fault", let's look at the 190 issue. You said "E190's either they came later after the merger for which the east has stolen every single seat!" Stolen Really? The E190s went where they did as a result of, wait for it, ARBITRATION!!!! From a whiney west resolution wanting your seats now despite the conditions for getting them not being met:
"WHEREAS Arbitrator Eischen was selected to determine the fair and equitable allocation of EMB-190 aircraft as between AAA and AWA. Hearings were held over August 1 and 2, 2006. The opinion (“Eischen Award”) was published on September 5th, 2006. Arbitrator Eischen determined one-third of the new flying generated by the fifty-seven (57) EMB-190 aircraft was the fair and equitable share for the AWA pilots, however, the AWA pilots would not be afforded any EMB-190 positions until after Operational Integration; in Arbitrator Eischen’s words, his Award represented “IOUs” to the West". Integrity in action, again.
I'm sure you can provide a link to where US couldn't get financing for CRJs. Then tell me how the entire Mid Atlantic fleet of EMB 170s made it here.
Here are a couple other links for you. Education is a great thing. You should avail yourself to it. I'll be here to help when ever you need it, don't hesitate to ask.
http://old.post-gaze...2/508153-28.stm
http://jamhoff.com/PDFs/ArbitratorDecisionAward.pdf
The Financial Picture
From the evidence, it is clear enough that the merger with AWA was a meaningful factor in U.S. Airway’s emergence from bankruptcy. Together, the two companies were able to attract investments that, operating alone, they might not have secured. However, West’s claim that U.S. Airways emerged from bankruptcy "only because it [was] acquired by a stronger enterprise"
10 is reflected neither in the KPMG audit report (cited by West)11 nor in any other portion of the evidence. Instead, each carrier had something to contribute. Airways, for example, was much larger. It served almost twice as many destinations as AWA and carried twice the number of passengers.12 Airways has substantially more cash on hand, following the merger agreement. AWA, for its part, brought relative success as a low cost carrier operation with a meaningful presence in the Western United States.
Airways’ "fresh start"13 included a series of steps designed to strengthen Airways’ financial situation. Among other things, it entered into concessionary bargaining with its unions, ultimately securing some $1 billion dollars per year in cost reductions. 14 Termination of certain existing defined benefit and other post-retirement benefit plans generated substantial savings.15 A 35 percent decrease in labor cost16 taken together with other cost saving measures, resulted in a positive net operating income for the second and third quarters of 2005, prior to approval of the merger agreement in September of 2005. 17 AWA, for its part, while not in bankruptcy, was attempting to confront what it regarded as a troubled and potentially perilous future, absent the merger, in the face of rising fuel costs and depressed unit revenues as a result of over capacity, among other things. It, too, needed cash.
West characterizes the merger decision on AWA’s part as a one-way economic bailout. But there is no support for this in the record; surely, the respective companies did not endorse that view. AWA concluded, according to the statements of its CEO, that "…when we looked out at our future, what we sawwasn’t good…. Assuming we couldn’t go out and restructure or raise cash, it is possible that AWA would have been facing its own Chapter 11 at some point. Employees may like to think we "saved" US but the fact is we saved each other…18
Airways’ "fresh start"13 included a series of steps designed to strengthen Airways’ financial situation. Among other things, it entered into concessionary bargaining with its unions, ultimately securing some $1 billion dollars per year in cost reductions. 14 Termination of certain existing defined benefit and other post-retirement benefit plans generated substantial savings.15 A 35 percent decrease in labor cost16 taken together with other cost saving measures, resulted in a positive net operating income for the second and third quarters of 2005, prior to approval of the merger agreement in September of 2005. 17 AWA, for its part, while not in bankruptcy, was attempting to confront what it regarded as a troubled and potentially perilous future, absent the merger, in the face of rising fuel costs and depressed unit revenues as a result of over capacity, among other things. It, too, needed cash.
West characterizes the merger decision on AWA’s part as a one-way economic bailout. But there is no support for this in the record; surely, the respective companies did not endorse that view. AWA concluded, according to the statements of its CEO, that "…when we looked out at our future, what we sawwasn’t good…. Assuming we couldn’t go out and restructure or raise cash, it is possible that AWA would have been facing its own Chapter 11 at some point. Employees may like to think we "saved" US but the fact is we saved each other…18
US Air seeks Chapter 11 protection, continues operating - Aug. 11, 2002
WD at AWA
03-16-2013, 03:55 PM
#532
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
I will find the others too. You may wish to sit down as this is not pretty stuff!!!
US Air seeks Chapter 11 protection, continues operating - Aug. 11, 2002
WD at AWA
US Air seeks Chapter 11 protection, continues operating - Aug. 11, 2002
WD at AWA
I admit I just scanned it but did it mention the 1.9 BILLION stock buyback of Wolf?
Since you went waaay back, let's see if you can find some information on AW's bankruptcy.
03-16-2013, 05:11 PM
#535
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
Wow! That's what you found to refute my post? From 2002, the first chp 11 with the idiot Dave Siegel? Impressive.
I admit I just scanned it but did it mention the 1.9 BILLION stock buyback of Wolf?
Since you went waaay back, let's see if you can find some information on AW's bankruptcy.
I admit I just scanned it but did it mention the 1.9 BILLION stock buyback of Wolf?
Since you went waaay back, let's see if you can find some information on AW's bankruptcy.
I sure can dig up the AWA bk if you want no problem there. I can also prove to you that this was a reverse merger where AWA retained all control of usair. They took the usair name for no other reason than name recognition. Just tell me what you want me to post for you?
WD at AWA
03-17-2013, 10:47 AM
#536
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: B777/CA retired
Posts: 1,502
Here's the deal. US Airways was facing liquidation in less than two months. That is certain and part of history. You had zero money. AWA made the last payroll for AAA before the merger was announced.
If AAA had been liquidated then SWA was poised to take the gates they needed in PHL and some of the 737s. They would have interviewed some of your guys. That's it (see ATA for how that worked out). Parker had already been beaten out of merging ATA by a combination of SWA backed by Boeing. SWA took the ATA assets they needed and dumped the rest, including the employees. Parker did not want that to happen again so he put together the money package from Wall Street, and rushed to get the deal done before CH 7 happened for Airways. We had a seniority integration all worked out with ATA because Parker made us part of the planning process. The AAA dal went down so quickly that he did not get the labor part of the deal done in advance, he hustled to get it done solely on the money package because the risk of liquidation was so great.
Any speculation on the future of AWA is just that. The stuff that keeps getting brought up was years after the fact. We could have been merged with any other carrier out there. We could have gone CH 11. We coulda, shoulda, woulda. It's all BS and ignores the reality that AAA WAS TOAST without the deal.
I don't know why this keeps coming up. It doesn't matter any more. You guys did not abide by the agreed seniority integration. The arbitrator took all the pre merger facts into account and made his decision. You didn't want to abide by that and so you created a six year impasse. Those are the facts.
If AAA had been liquidated then SWA was poised to take the gates they needed in PHL and some of the 737s. They would have interviewed some of your guys. That's it (see ATA for how that worked out). Parker had already been beaten out of merging ATA by a combination of SWA backed by Boeing. SWA took the ATA assets they needed and dumped the rest, including the employees. Parker did not want that to happen again so he put together the money package from Wall Street, and rushed to get the deal done before CH 7 happened for Airways. We had a seniority integration all worked out with ATA because Parker made us part of the planning process. The AAA dal went down so quickly that he did not get the labor part of the deal done in advance, he hustled to get it done solely on the money package because the risk of liquidation was so great.
Any speculation on the future of AWA is just that. The stuff that keeps getting brought up was years after the fact. We could have been merged with any other carrier out there. We could have gone CH 11. We coulda, shoulda, woulda. It's all BS and ignores the reality that AAA WAS TOAST without the deal.
I don't know why this keeps coming up. It doesn't matter any more. You guys did not abide by the agreed seniority integration. The arbitrator took all the pre merger facts into account and made his decision. You didn't want to abide by that and so you created a six year impasse. Those are the facts.
03-17-2013, 12:41 PM
#537
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
You really missed your calling. Did you call the dates for CO's two bankruptcies, DL's, UA's, NW's?
I could tell you in 2004 that AWA was in trouble.
AMERICA WEST HOLDINGS CORP - 10-K Annual Report - 12/31/2004
You guys have been throwing the BS around so long that you wouldn't know the truth if it hit you in the face. You didn't work for SWA, you worked for AWA. One of the great...........also rans.
Sorry to break it to you.
I could tell you in 2004 that AWA was in trouble.
AMERICA WEST HOLDINGS CORP - 10-K Annual Report - 12/31/2004
You guys have been throwing the BS around so long that you wouldn't know the truth if it hit you in the face. You didn't work for SWA, you worked for AWA. One of the great...........also rans.
Sorry to break it to you.
03-17-2013, 12:49 PM
#538
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Here's the deal. US Airways was facing liquidation in less than two months. That is certain and part of history. You had zero money. AWA made the last payroll for AAA before the merger was announced.
If AAA had been liquidated then SWA was poised to take the gates they needed in PHL and some of the 737s. They would have interviewed some of your guys. That's it (see ATA for how that worked out). Parker had already been beaten out of merging ATA by a combination of SWA backed by Boeing. SWA took the ATA assets they needed and dumped the rest, including the employees. Parker did not want that to happen again so he put together the money package from Wall Street, and rushed to get the deal done before CH 7 happened for Airways. We had a seniority integration all worked out with ATA because Parker made us part of the planning process. The AAA dal went down so quickly that he did not get the labor part of the deal done in advance, he hustled to get it done solely on the money package because the risk of liquidation was so great.
Any speculation on the future of AWA is just that. The stuff that keeps getting brought up was years after the fact. We could have been merged with any other carrier out there. We could have gone CH 11. We coulda, shoulda, woulda. It's all BS and ignores the reality that AAA WAS TOAST without the deal.
I don't know why this keeps coming up. It doesn't matter any more. You guys did not abide by the agreed seniority integration. The arbitrator took all the pre merger facts into account and made his decision. You didn't want to abide by that and so you created a six year impasse. Those are the facts.
If AAA had been liquidated then SWA was poised to take the gates they needed in PHL and some of the 737s. They would have interviewed some of your guys. That's it (see ATA for how that worked out). Parker had already been beaten out of merging ATA by a combination of SWA backed by Boeing. SWA took the ATA assets they needed and dumped the rest, including the employees. Parker did not want that to happen again so he put together the money package from Wall Street, and rushed to get the deal done before CH 7 happened for Airways. We had a seniority integration all worked out with ATA because Parker made us part of the planning process. The AAA dal went down so quickly that he did not get the labor part of the deal done in advance, he hustled to get it done solely on the money package because the risk of liquidation was so great.
Any speculation on the future of AWA is just that. The stuff that keeps getting brought up was years after the fact. We could have been merged with any other carrier out there. We could have gone CH 11. We coulda, shoulda, woulda. It's all BS and ignores the reality that AAA WAS TOAST without the deal.
I don't know why this keeps coming up. It doesn't matter any more. You guys did not abide by the agreed seniority integration. The arbitrator took all the pre merger facts into account and made his decision. You didn't want to abide by that and so you created a six year impasse. Those are the facts.
Did you catch the part where US had more cash than AWA? It was locked up in credit card hold backs and ATSB covenants. The money for the merger was not raised by Parker, it was raised by Lakefield and Luth.
Parker stepped in and unlocked that and with that it did save US. One of your pilots (AOL chief told) told me that he thought SW would step in with a different plan. Who knows, but the only real fact we know is that US never went out of business. It merged with AWA and brought it's value with it, value that AWA didn't have the money to buy. It was a very good transaction for the corporations and Parker has told you over and over that the east is the main money generator. That the other majors getting it's costs to AWAs level, with greater revenue opportunities, was the DEATH KNELL for AWA.
It keeps coming up because you guys keep spewing the BS about it. It's the only way anyone with a conscience can justify the Nic. Just like Carl said, no one in our situation would want to accept the Nic and you guys always leave out the FACT that our transition agreement allowed what happened. You don't want to accept that FACT.
03-17-2013, 02:24 PM
#539
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Airbus CA
Posts: 948
Airways was in big trouble since about 1990. The die was cast back in the 1980's. Basically a series of strategic decisions that however well-intentioned all turned out to be dead wrong. Colodny decided that the airline would just be a larger super-regional version of what it already was; merged with two low-cost carriers and mostly ruined them, turned his back on international markets, ordered a bunch more little airplanes (F100 anyone?) and bet the farm on the PIT hub who's population base nowhere near warranted it.
I was at an ALPA DCA domicile meeting in 1993 where some financial advisors were present who said in the 1991-92 period USAir by rights should have gone bk and they were still amazed they avoided it. Throughout the 90's over and over what you heard was the airline had no future as a stand-alone and Wolf was brought in to sell it but failed.
Sure R57 you can't prove they wouldn't have cheated death nor can you prove they would have mde it. I do think that in early 2005 prior to any merger rumblings if you would have randomly polled 100 impartial pilots which carrier would you rather be at now it would have come out maybe 80-90 AWA. Just my opinion, I was there though and still vividly remember the gallows mentality that prevailed.
Airways has, finally, hit upon a deal where their "golden goose" northeast regional network can get plugged into a worldwide network and at last be properly leveraged, something they were never going to accomplish on their own. Let's hope they get it right this time.
I was at an ALPA DCA domicile meeting in 1993 where some financial advisors were present who said in the 1991-92 period USAir by rights should have gone bk and they were still amazed they avoided it. Throughout the 90's over and over what you heard was the airline had no future as a stand-alone and Wolf was brought in to sell it but failed.
Sure R57 you can't prove they wouldn't have cheated death nor can you prove they would have mde it. I do think that in early 2005 prior to any merger rumblings if you would have randomly polled 100 impartial pilots which carrier would you rather be at now it would have come out maybe 80-90 AWA. Just my opinion, I was there though and still vividly remember the gallows mentality that prevailed.
Airways has, finally, hit upon a deal where their "golden goose" northeast regional network can get plugged into a worldwide network and at last be properly leveraged, something they were never going to accomplish on their own. Let's hope they get it right this time.
03-17-2013, 03:20 PM
#540
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Sure R57 you can't prove they wouldn't have cheated death nor can you prove they would have mde it. I do think that in early 2005 prior to any merger rumblings if you would have randomly polled 100 impartial pilots which carrier would you rather be at now it would have come out maybe 80-90 AWA. Just my opinion, I was there though and still vividly remember the gallows mentality that prevailed.
Were you on the east in 2005? I thought you said you were furloughed. I remember it well and was looking at options in case US failed. I thought there was a good chance of it. I applied to SW and JB, but I didn't have my heart in going either place. One day I was flying with a guy that had a brother-in-law at AWA. He said he was high in the flt dept. and he could probably help get me in there. I said "Thanks, but I'm not that desperate." That wasn't a slam at AWA, but I didn't think it would be a good move. I've been around the business my entire life, followed it closely and didn't think AWA had a viable business plan. I would rather try something else than move my family to PHX and start over there. I had a couple other options and thought it would be a better plan to wait US out. I was correct. A guy just junior to me left US to go to AWA. I think he is furloughed now and I'm an A320 captain, on what my side brought to the merger.
The point is not that US was taking the world by storm or that they may not have gone out of business. The point is that we didn't go out of business, AWA saw value in a MERGER and we brought a lot of value to AWA, with them putting not a dime of their money into it. Nicolau got the assumptions wrong and it's all there for anyone that wants to see it.
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