cactusmike

I'm sorry, Carl, I really did not answer your question. We would be harmed because we would be using a list that was not produced by the transition agreement. The MOU states that the MOU does not change existing seniority lists. That can be applied to mean the Nicolau, and that is what we are funding AOL to show.

cactusmike

Interesting post. We feel that because the east voted to accept the MOU with a seniority integration that will result in a non date of hire, ratioed list, that we have proven our point. It just took a little money for you to get over DOH, and the last 6 years was just about grabbing all the upgrades you could until the clock ran out.

LittleBoyBlew

With all due respect Mike, but our previous TA was NULLiFIED by the MOU. Different game, different players. Lists, as in PLURAL... There are TWO lists for the USA PILOTS.

LittleBoyBlew

With all due respect Mike, but our previous TA was NULLiFIED by the MOU. Different game, different players. THERE ARE TWO lists for the USA pilots. The MOU was quite clear.

R57 relay

CM,

You have been one of the most respectful, level headed US posters I've seen on any web board. That is greatly appreciated. Of course that doesn't mean I always agree with you, and this post is no different.

I agree with you that the west followed the process and the Nicolau award was the result. I've often times said that you don't have to say anything but "We played fair, and went by the process. How can we rearrange the list and redefine the winners and loser?"

Now that I have given you that, a couple things that I disagree on. I don't see how anyone can argue that the Nicolau was not a (potential) windfall. If it had gone into affect in 2007, many pilots would have been in a position to immediately receive bids that they could not have had before and that likely would not have in a long time. For example, an east guy at #500 on the list could walk in to PHX and be number 1 on the 757 or A320. For the west guys in my Nic senior range, they had never held captain and had no widebody F/O slots to choose from. Overnight they could have had both. The shift of relative position from east to west is clear and you cannot argue that it wouldn't happen. The East MEC report to the BOD that I provided a link to points that out very clearly.

Hissy fit? There was outrage at what happened, but I and my east co-workers don't see it as a hissy fit. Nicolau used assuptions that have proven to be wrong to produce a list that greatly harmed us. We used the transition agreement to keep that from happening. It was an economic decision. Your statement that a joint SLI was required before a JCBA is incorrect. They were running in parallel and had Parker not been trying to squeeze every dime out of the east, we might have had a JCBA before the Nicolau award came out and we wouldn't have been here. But, he didn't and we had that option. The reaction from the west from us doing that is what I would call a hissy fit. Had the shoe been on the other foot, you guys would have had the same option, and a west friend of mine has admitted that you guys weren't unhappy with that provision of the TA because you thought you might have to use in event of a poor SLI for you.

You say all the west can do is let this play out. That is not true. You guys have had other choices all along. There was Wye River before USAPA was every elected. Every court case talks about negotiation over all sections of a new contract. You guys could have been more pragmatic instead of forming an "Army". You didn't, you did what you thought was right. Fine, but ALPA warned you of the risks of going down that path. My frustration is not with the west standing up for their rights, but going down a path and then complaining about the results. BOTH sides made their choices. The east has paid with remaining on the worst contract in the business thus subsiding the company. The west has paid in stagnation as their system shrunk(providing Nicolau was wrong).

Last thing. You said the Nicolau is included in the MOU. You left off a few words in your quote. Here's the whole thing:
10
h. US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for
changing the seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways other than through the process set forth in
this Paragraph 10.

Lists(plural) CURRENTLY in EFFECT. I don't see how that definition fits the Nicolau award, but I predict the definition of "in effect" will be coming to a court room near you soon.

Carl Spackler

Deleted.......

R57 relay

I've said all along that with enough money a Nic inclusive contract would pass. It never was DOH at any cost. It's just that Parker never did, and IMHO, never would have provided that good of a contract. There wasn't a DL contract waiting on the other side, it was the stinking Kirby proposal. With what he was willing to provide it was worth waiting the court battle out. I think the overwhelming defeat of the Ferguson ticket in the last election shows that clearly.

FreighterGuyNow

And what 'clock' would that be specifically?

There is no timeline in ALPA merger policy. This 'clock' of yours is simply your attempt to introduce an agenda furthering your own interests not part of, nor agreed to by the party's to the TA.

It took Atlas/Polar 11 years to get to a joint agreement. 11 YEARS.

Anyway, thanks for proving my point.

Carl Spackler

The list produced by your transition agreement was the Nicolau list. I understand that you will be harmed by not using the Nicolau list. But interestingly, doesn't that prove that the Nicolau award was a windfall to the West pilots? If it wasn't, why would the "Army" have been funded and be fighting so hard? Is it because the "Army" is just purely devoted to the concept of process and principle being followed to the letter? Of course not. The "Army" is fighting for keeping the windfall provided by the Nicolau award...and therein lies your problem. You'll be arguing to a judge that you'll be harmed by not getting a list that was never implemented. You'll be arguing that you'll be damaged by integrating with APA via the very lists that you are currently operating from. Showing harm is going to be a very difficult fight for you I'm afraid.

You're right it could be applied to mean the Nicolau award. Anything is possible. But the very language of the MOU makes that difficult for you. It uses the term "existing" and "lists"... Emphasis on plural.

Now you might have had a chance for large monetary damages if you could have proven USAPA did not act for a legitimate union purpose. But that's an almost impossible task now that over 95% of West pilots voted in favor of what was brought to them by USAPA.

I just hate to see you wasting so much energy and money on such a legal long shot.

Carl

cactiboss

There is no membership ratification required only a single contract, get it straight. You don't get to vote on the jcba.