R57 relay

Wiggy says:

“Don't be so quick to lob the ad hominem grenade...I saw your post about the third listers...I was wondering if you had heard of such a movement...have you come across it by innuendo, indirectly...are there 3rd listers who vehemently take the east's stand...why would they? One would think they would be neutral...with the idea that eventually every one will have to get along once they're intermingled...in the great post merger by-and-by....”

I answered you, quickly and concisely. Try that sometime. You are a very pleonastic penman.

“Ok, this is makes some sense, had talks continued under the ALPA purview, which, if I'm not mistaken ALPA had a legal obligation to accept the Nic...thus putting more pressure on the east to settle...that perhaps just by the process of engaging in extended negotiations the west might have seen the burden the east was negotiating under...and been willing to compromise some part of the Nic in exchange for a greatly improved contract...Thus both sides motivated to an improved contract to compensate for give and take on seniority....(or something like that).

The problem with this is, of course, the west was under absolutely no obligation to compromise the Nic...and consider this, R, whether parties to a binding arbitration have the legal ability, even if it is mutually agreed to...to change such binding award...It may sound counterintuitive...two parties should be able change their own obligations to each other if they mutually so choose, the leadership of such groups might deem it "best for all", but all it would take would be for one member from either group's rank and file to object...if their own personal position on the list were made worse. They would file suit...saying to the judge "what the h€ll, we had a legally binding, fair award here, now there is some secret hand-shake deal that screws me over"....the legal circus seemingly unavoidable....”

As much as both sides came to hate ALPA for their actions in this, I think ALPA National did realize what a looming disaster this was for both groups. That’s why they tried to lead us to a “consensual agreement.” They knew the west didn’t have to do anything, but if they didn’t they would be in a tough spot with the TA. So again we agree! The west didn’t have to do anything, but I believe it would have served them better by being a little more pragmatic. In the interest of full disclosure, I think I’ve been better served by them taking the hard line.

You need to remember that USAPA took a unique tack with the Nic. They didn’t seek to change it-they just tried to go around it. They claimed that it was just a bargaining proposal and as such the new union could discard it. We didn’t have a JCBA in place, so it was like any other provision in the TA and they TA contained language that said that it could be changed at anytime with the agreement of the parties. Whether or not that strategy would have ultimately worked, we will never know. The MOU came along and laid out a new path for our SLI and nullified all previous contracts and agreements.

“And realistically R, regardless of their willingness to negotiate, the writing was on the wall when USAPA was elected...they were elected for no other reason than to maximize opposition to the Nic, and thus by default minimize or actually oppose the interests of the west.”

Absolutely. But, you have to remember that USAPA’s DOH proposal for section 22 was just that-a proposal. The company didn’t have to accept it and I still believe that in the end they wouldn’t have. They never negotiated a day on section 22. They could have said “On this section 22 proposal. Yeah, that’s not going to fly, what else do you have in mind?” But again, that is a moot point with the MOU.

70Espada

I'd have to agree. I've never talked to a third lister that has ever said they had any reason to be placed ahead of a west pilot, in fact they've all said the opposite.

There was a rumor about some idiot that wrote a letter to the company espousing the reasons why she should be placed above pilots hired prior to her at the same airline. Supposedly it turned out she was dating an east pilot and the whole thing was a ploy to push DOH. Hopefully not true, because I'd hate to think we have nut jobs like that flying around passengers.

R57 relay

We did have a pilot that asked why they allowed the furloughed west pilots that came east to have their seniority adjusted for their DOH. When they originally came over they went to the bottom because of the separate ops provision of the TA and Bloch 's decision on the furlough out of seniority greivance that USAPA lost. I guess she felt it should not have been changed until we had a SLI.

70Espada

While I still don't agree with her at least that argument makes some semblance of sense. Probably the same story only I heard it after it had been passed on too many times.

R57 relay

It doesn't take long for things to get mixed up,huh?

wiggy

Indeed...think about this: In your large font diatribe above, -done in the bright red, intimidating blood-color of danger...far from instilling a sense of animalistic foreboding in the visceral recesses of the phylogenic hind-brain, merely serves to show that you have become more shrill and desperate in your attempts to portray your greed-driven plight...and your severely ad hoministic alliteration, while clever, and perhaps even true, is another fine example you set for the unwitting likes of PurpleTurtle...R-57 relay...you rambling, reckless reprobate...you...pusillanimous purveyor of presumptive patois...

R57 relay

How would your CIA friends analyze the above reply?

If your spent as much time paying attention to the posts as you do trying to be clever, then you would see that if PT gave you a simple answer it would rob him of what he gets from this board. Think about it. At the risk of doing just that, go back and read his replies that led some to the conclusion that he was a 3rd lister. Hence the hook, line and sinker.

I should have known better than to pick red for my reply, that it would give you reason to ramble about the style instead of the substance. I hope this is soothing to you and puts you at peace my brother.





Perhaps a visual can express what my limited writing abilities cannot.

Wiskey Driver

I don't care what anyone says man you missed your calling! I think you need to be writing books or screen plays

WD at AWA

wiggy

Thanks WD, my own interest in all this stems from the simple idea that justice should be served. This dispute seemed to clearly exemplify a simple dichotomy between right and wrong...(and it does, BTW). I wasn't interested so much in Machiavellian legalistic maneuverings, but more in principles of ethics. I confined my remarks to the mountains of BS stemming from the East's "principled" attempt to circumvent the Nic, and I was a bit incredulous when posters from the east, mostly in the form of R-57, tried to make ethical justifications...I granted that their legalistic justification seems to have worked out so far. But I've never allowed that they should, or "ought" to have evaded the Nic, only in fact, that they were in a position that they "could" evade it...and have thus far, unfortunately, been able to...

I used to think the vitriol got a little vexatious on these threads, and tried to refrain from ad hominem assignations assassinating character, but I was caught totally off guard two days ago when, in my apparent naïveté concerning the ethical abilities of east pilots, I came to be aware of the present situation concerning PurpleTurtle...that the possibility existed that there was a cadre of east pilots who felt the third listers at the bottom of the east list should be given equal weight to the bottom of the west list...I even implored those involved to show examples...I was incredulous at first, but a little research reveals that the term "incredulous" is inadequate for what was found...which, in reality, reaches beyond the pale of human understanding....What follows is a few choice nuggets of justificational wisdom courtesy of that slithering snake of self-interested seniority...that pandering, pompous punk of puerile predisposition known as PurpleTurtle:

(perhaps the red lettering will stimulate the Neandrethalic fore-brains of all those east pilots who agree with the following)

"We have so-called third listers as captains.. heck, we have new hires as captains... Who is gonna flush them?

There really is no third list.. There are only two lists at USAir recognized in the MOU and in the bidding.

The only way to argue the so called third listers should not keep their relative position (senior to the West who have lower relative positions) is to argue the West should be credited with their LOS or DOH. Far be it from me to force the concept of LOS or DOH on the West. Let the West make their own argument. Their demand for relative position is just fine."

-And if one isn't totally convinced of Purple's "principled" prejudices, we have this little gem of sickening, situationally self-interested solipsistic solicitation:

"Under the new MOU we no longer have "third listers". We have two lists at USAir and I am happy to argue relative position all the way up and down. Most if not all of the so called third listers should be senior to the junior West guys, and only our newest hires in the last year should be mixed in with the junior guys on the West and APA.

But what do I know. I'm just along for the ride and enjoying every new bid that comes out as we wait."

....oh yes, I'll bet you're enjoying being along on that ride, Purple...laying tracks right up the backs of your fellow pilots...This is really quite disgusting, I couldn't imagine in a million years that a college educated, experienced pilot who implicitly understands the abstract notions of what seniority means, could come up with such an idea.

So, yes, WD, I used to think the vitriol got a little out of hand...I used to think, like others both for and against your struggle, that the term "scab" might go a little beyond what was justified...Yes...I "used" to think that....

Wiskey Driver

Welcome to what has been the west's nightmare for years. I don't think the APA will allow this to fester. Comparison is all that is needed and people need look no further than what ever they come up with and then compare that against the NIC. The east feels that to get by all they have to say is that we will never reach a point where a document(s) could be compared. We can look at where east and west were on the nic list and then compare that to the new SLI and if west pilots are pushed much further down as a result then that would equal harm and that returns everyone to the courts.

The APA has zero interest in being given usapa's mess to try and clean up. This is far from over however I do feel that it can be over and with no lawsuits. One way is for the APA to recognize the only seniority we have which is the one that came from binding arbitration. The other way is to have a west committee there to advocate the west position. I dont much care for option two but it is a way to avoid law suits in the future.

WD at AWA