ForeverFO

Since I joined this forum, the East/West arguments have been heated, to say the least. Acronyms tossed about like M & M's, legal threats, Nic this and that. It is difficult to extract meaningful, real life information from these debates.

I would very much like to hear examples of what has happened (or would have happened under certain proposals) that makes guys so hot about this.

For example - "If we implement the Nic, a West CA hired in 2000 will be senior to an East FO hired in 1992. He was a CA pre-merge; therefore, he should remain one..." or "USAPA's proposal would send hordes of 18 year FO's to Phoenix and they'll take all our CA jobs."

Does this ^^ sound about right? I'm not trying to be facetious, I am really trying to understand. DOH is probably dead on arrival. How about length of service? When you inject career expectation into the equation, it gets very ugly due to the subjective nature of it. Very hard to quantify.

R57 relay

That's the reason for negotiations. I doubt that straight DOH would be acceptable, and I don't have enough information about the AA list to even have an idea if there would be a way to make DOH acceptable to them. You don't either, but that doesn't matter in your world. I fully expect this to go to arbitration.

Have you ever stopped to think that since 2005 things have changed and the east pilots are not as worried about arbitration now?

VenetianFryCook

I am a third-lister, so I am theoretically neutral on this. (A third-lister being a pilot hired at US after the US/HP merge who is junior to all pre-merger East and West pilots regardless of list in use.) So here's my best attempt to explain the situation as neutrally as I can.

The US/HP integration attempted to integrate two of the most demographially dissimilar pilot groups ever to merge in our industry's history. HP started in 1983 and had a RELATIVELY uniform pattern of hiring throughout its history (not many massive gluts of hiring or long gaps with no new hires). US - itself the product of many prior mergers - had a dramatically older pilot group with some enormous gaps in hiring (nobody from 1990-1998 for example) and some huge gluts (1986-1989 for example) in the list, due to both hiring "binges" and the placement of pilots on the list from prior integrations (PSA, Piedmont, Trump, etc.).

At the time of the merger, HP was hiring and US had hundreds of pilots on furlough, dating back to 1989 hires.

Nicolau's arbitration award attempted to balance the enormous differences in the two groups (quite possibly an impossible task). The award granted the first 500-ish spots on the list to the East (US), accounting for their widebody (767 and 330) aircraft which the West (HP) did not have at merger time. Next all remaining active pilots on both lists were ratioed in, first on a ratio for 757s (common to both airlines) then for 737/320 (also common to both). Thereafter, the furloughed East pilots were placed on the bottom. Seems reasonable enough, until you look at the demographics.

The bottom active East pilot at the time of the merger had about 17 years in at US, whereas the bottom West pilot was a new hire fresh from the schoolhouse. This LOS disparity meant that West pilots on the lower half of their list were placed among East pilots with over a decade more LOS than they had. This obviously caused heartburn to many on the East.

The East had advocated for a DOH list before Arbitrator Nicolau. The problem with this is that some 80% of the West list, in this scenario, would have been slotted below East pilots furloughed at the time of the merger. While not technically a staple, it would have been an effective staple for many West pilots (since, save for several hundred hired from 1998-2000, the entire East list at the merger was hired in or before 1989). Obviously, the West had a real problem with this concept.

After the Nicolau Award was released, the West obviously fared better than the East AS A WHOLE under it. The East was desperate to get out of it. Attempts to vacate the award were made through ALPA and through the courts. Eventually, the idea was struck to elect a new union whose presence might invalidate the award. So, a card drive was started, and (thanks to the East's 2:1 size advantage versus the West) USAPA was elected. USAPA has been attempting to dispose of the Nicolau Award ever since, and a number of court cases have come along since which have thoroughly muddied the legal waters.

The West (through a self-funded LLC, the Army of Leonidas [AOL]), has vigorously defended the Nicolau Award and insists that its list be part of the AA merger. The East (through USAPA, the union representing all US Airways pilots) has insisted the Nicolau Award is dead and that it is free to negotiate a seniority regime of its choosing with the Company.

Lawsuits: The Addington case. Some West pilots (Addington being the lead plaintiff) sued USAPA for breach of DFR for failing to implement the Nicolau Award. The Addington plaintiffs won this case, in Federal court in Phoenix, several years ago. USAPA appealed to the Ninth Circuit, which ruled that the the DFR in Addington would not be "ripe" until a JCBA incorporating a non-Nicolau list was signed. (The Ninth did NOT, however, comment on the merits of the underlying DFR case.)

The situation being unresolved, US Airways filed a Declaratory Judgment Action in Federal court in Phoenix in 2011 to resolve its liability, if any, in the seniority dispute. In the case, US Airways states that it is neutral on the seniority dispute, but wishes to ensure that it cannot be held liable to either side depending on the outcome. The Judge in that case rules that USAPA CAN pursue a non-Nicolau seniority regime, provided it is supported by a LEGITIMATE UNION PURPOSE. She also does NOT offer US Airways any protection from liability. Therefore, US Airways has appealed this ruling to the Ninth Circuit, where the matter pends today.

Enter the AA merger. AOL's attorney suggests the MOU is a ratified contract (or at least a path to one), making the dispute in the Addington case - as set aside by the Ninth - "ripe". AOL's position is that any non-Nicolau list damages the West pilots and therefore insists that the Nicolau list be the list used to integrate with the AA pilots. If USAPA, APA, and the Company don't use it, AOL intends to seek a restraining order enjoining the integration process (but not the merger, they say) until the courts rule. USAPA says this is nonsense and intends to pursue a DOH solution to the East/West scenario (and with APA, per its Constitution). The Company just wants to avoid being sued by anyone, no matter how the list comes down.

If you're not confused yet, you haven't been paying enough attention!

R57 relay

Thanks for the question forever. I'd assumed that most AA pilots skipped this thread since cacti and I were safely sequestered here!

I will give you my examples and then cacti will come back and tell you how I am wrong, but first a little background.

I was hired by PI in May '86. Merged with US by DOH with fences that US pretty easily got around. Merged with Trump in the late 90's with George Nicolau handing down a slotted list. Then the whole AWA/US disaster. On the Trump SLI I thought we should have given them their EA DOH because there was only about 150 of them and around 5000 of us, but most guys didn't agree because they resigned from EA and I don't think they even asked for it. Anyway, the guy from Trump slotted just ahead of me was hired when I was in the 3rd grade. I wondered how he felt, after Nic 2, I knew.

Although I disagreed with Nicolau on how he slotted us, I didn't have a problem with a slotted list and felt confident that our LOS proposal(many guys incorrectly state that we pushed for DOH and that is incorrect-the proposal going into arbitration was LOS) would not fly. Our merger committee made a lot of mistakes. When the Nicolau came out I was as angry as anyone, but knew we had an ace in the hole. Our transition agreement called for separate ops until we had a JCBA. Parker had been dragging his heels to get that, so we ended up with a SLI and no contract-stalemate. The theory of forming a new union came out and I carefully looked at both sides before I cast my vote and decided that the USAPA plan would not work, would tie us up in the courts and voted, reluctantly, for ALPA. The rest is history.

The Nicolau award was interesting in a lot of ways. First was the method or protecting widebody flying. US had a little, with a decent sized trans-Atlantic operation, the west had none. I think we had around 18 767s and A330s. Nicolau decided to protect that by giving all the slots associated with those aircraft to the east, and putting them on the top of the list. So, we had around 517 pilots flying capt, F/O and IROs and he gave that number to the east and put the top 517 east CAPTAINS ahead of all AWA guys. So a guy that could not hold widebody captain was given super seniority over the top west guys. He also put a few conditions and restriction on that flying, put the age 60 rule was in flux andhe put in that if the retirement age was changed, the C&Rs went away. So, we ended up with NO fences, and the only people that were protected for widebody flying were the top 517 east pilots. F/Os and guys in line for that widebody flying got no protection. If the Nic was in place today, some west pilots would be in line for A330 capt, many for 767I captain and every single west pilot could fly F/O on either.

After Nicolau put the east 517 on top, he stapled the pilots listed as furloughed on May 19, 2005(date the merger was announced) to the bottom. He did this despite the fact that he used the early 2007 seniority list to construct his list. He said he did this to "more properly reflect the realities of the merged airline." Thing is, that 2007 list had over 300 pilots listed as furloughed in 2005 returned to the line, the "reality of the merged airline", yet he still stapled them. Stapled a guy with 17 years LOS behind a guy that had a month or two with the airline when the merger was announced.

Between the 517 east on top and "furloughed" pilots on the bottom, the rest of us were slotted, on average about 1 for 1.

That resulted in a lot of us ending up at the about the same relative position on the Nic as what we had on our respective lists. I think I gained a couple of points, the guy beside me on the Nic lost a couple. The thing is, that would rapidly change over time. Because the east pilot group was, on average, much older a lot of the attrition would now come from the bottom of the seniority list, and the attrition at the top of the east list would now gain the west more than east. Over time this would have led to an acceleration of relative seniority for west pilots and a slowing for east. The majority of east pilots are in a tight group of DOHs from about 81-89. There is a vast difference in seniority between those DOH. The guys hired in the late 80s have been junior for years, waiting for the attrition to kick in, and Nicolau gave that attrition to the west pilots.

I will use my best friend as an example. He was hired in 1987. He first checked out as captain in around 1994 on the F-28 and then in 2000 on the 737. With the post 9/11 shrinkage, at the time of the merger he was a 737 F/O, around 70% of the active US list(we had about 1600 pilots on furlough). He had all but about 380 of the west pilots slotted above him. He would have retired at #4 on an east standalone list, on the Nic the best he could reach would be #454, out of the widebody captain range for the airplanes we had at the time. For a guy hired later it was even worse, one guy going from #10 to around #750 at retirement.

With separate ops, my friend is now an A320 capt. in CLT, the guy sitting beside him on the Nic is a very junior F/O on the west. If the Nic was put into place tomorrow my friend would lose 7% points in relative seniority and it gets worse every year. The guy in front of him on the Nic would gain 9% pts and gain more every year.

I first checked out in 1992, then 1999, then 2008. The guys beside me on the Nic have never been a captain and cannot hold it now by about 200-300 numbers. I am nearing a secondary block as a captain in CLT.

I know that was a windy post on what you wanted, but without the background I wasn't sure it would be clear. If you have time I recommend going to cactuspilot.com and there you can download the Nicolau Opinion and award. After reading it, I'd read the US Airways MEC Presentation to ALPA Executive Council, available here http://www.planebusiness.com/planebu...cusairways.pdf. I think it does a good job of explaining the east pilots POV. Of course ALPA couldn't/wouldn't do anything about it.

When I first read the Nicolau opinion I though he made some good points. Then I got to the award and thought "Is this the same guy?" To me it didn't resemble the arguments he made in his opinion. Also at the bottom of the award is the dissenting opinion from Brucia. I agree with him and think that had Nicolau listened to him this whole mess could have been avoided. Of course then Nicolau was the only one with a vote. That why the 3 man panel came about.

aquagreen73s

That is an accurate summary, VFC.

KillingMeSmalls

Very good post. This is why I think the arbitrators will integrate three different lists. There is no need to make the AMR guys suffer from the NIC award as well.

ackattacker

Thanks R57 and FryCook for your clear explanations. I don't have any crystal ball where this is all going with the APA merger, but I will say that it seems *unlikely* that we will see either a strict LOS or another Nicolau style award with the APA. I do think the inevitable West legal action will mire the seniority integration in the courts (Jury trial etc.) So it'll be 3 separate lists for a good while longer. Which is, ultimately, what a lot of East guys want so they can retire as Captains, so you won't see too much effort on their part to expedite the process. Right now the East has the attrition and growth, more than AA and far more than the West.

R57 relay

I had to look up some other numbers for you foreverFO.

On the last east system bid, if the Nicoalu award was implemented, every west pilot would be in the seniority range to hold E190 captain, and F/O on everything, in every base except A330 F/O in CLT. There the top 96% could hold it(the bottom 4% of the west pilots includes some furloughs).

For 737 and higher paying captain, the bottom east captain would be junior to 96% of the entire west group on the Nicolau.

R57 relay

My crystal ball is on the fritz too. I have to say that USAPA's request for an expedited appeal threw me.

One thing I have learned in this is that I would make a lousy lawyer, and have no desire to be one.

R57 relay

[QUOTE=aquagreen73s;1362659]That is an accurate summary, VFC.[/QUOTE

I agree.

If you are the same aquagreen from elsewhere, I have a question for you. If you choose to not answer for strategic reasons, I understand, no problem,

AOL claims the MOU makes the Addington ripe. I don't see how since it is a path to a CBA, not a CBA. Today the US pilots are still on two different contracts and will indeed stay there if the merger should fall through (I doubt it will, but you never know. It took about a year for the UA/US merger to fall through). If it is ripe, and the merger fails through, doesn't be come unripe again?