AOL update
11-29-2013, 06:27 AM
#1861
Flies With The Hat On
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Right of the Left Seat
Posts: 1,339
WD and cacti you're right. I just read my post and it's inaccurate so I redacted the word "pilots" from the second sentence.
So, I acknowledge that we don't know the opinions of individual APA pilots, but we do in fact know that APA's public position on the subject of Nic is neutral. For APA to do anything else would be to accept Nic or accept some tacit form of liability in AOLs pending DFR attempt to sue anyone involved. APA has so far disregarded AOL's attempts coordinate with APA.
The point I'm trying to make is that USAPA is not the only one possibly managing a deceptive legal strategy to avoid liability that may or may not exist. American, US Airways and APA are managing their own Nic legal exposure and, unlike cactiboss, all of them will or won't say anything to come out smelling like a rose.
WD, I get by under your radar because I'm not pro-Nic or DOH.
Cacti, please stop insulting people on this forum. I know APC users who have been banned for far less.
I'm going to raise the BS flag here on your semantics.
It is commonly known is that APA (and not nessesarily its pilots) do not support NIC, but they also don't support DOH.
Not unlike East and West, APA has their own separate agenda to pursue what APA views as fair and equitable for their association.
There is no reason for APA to participate right now in any SLI talks—less is more for them at the moment.
Word.
So, I acknowledge that we don't know the opinions of individual APA pilots, but we do in fact know that APA's public position on the subject of Nic is neutral. For APA to do anything else would be to accept Nic or accept some tacit form of liability in AOLs pending DFR attempt to sue anyone involved. APA has so far disregarded AOL's attempts coordinate with APA.
The point I'm trying to make is that USAPA is not the only one possibly managing a deceptive legal strategy to avoid liability that may or may not exist. American, US Airways and APA are managing their own Nic legal exposure and, unlike cactiboss, all of them will or won't say anything to come out smelling like a rose.
WD, I get by under your radar because I'm not pro-Nic or DOH.
Cacti, please stop insulting people on this forum. I know APC users who have been banned for far less.
I'm going to raise the BS flag here on your semantics. It is commonly known is that APA (and not nessesarily its pilots) do not support NIC, but they also don't support DOH.
Not unlike East and West, APA has their own separate agenda to pursue what APA views as fair and equitable for their association.
There is no reason for APA to participate right now in any SLI talks—less is more for them at the moment.
Word.
11-29-2013, 06:29 AM
#1862
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 390
Yet you voluntarily go to a thread that you know is just that.
It's working it way through court. The MOU covers it, but the west isn't happy with what they voted in. We'll see what happens, but count on an appeal from the losing party. There's not much else to do to speed it up.
Was the AA/TW a bit of a sob story by some? Seems that merger produced some federal legislation.
It's working it way through court. The MOU covers it, but the west isn't happy with what they voted in. We'll see what happens, but count on an appeal from the losing party. There's not much else to do to speed it up.
Was the AA/TW a bit of a sob story by some? Seems that merger produced some federal legislation.
With regards to ancient history with the TWA acquisition (as opposed to this which is a "merger"), the APA has a single recognized seniority list and one operating certificate. Any lingering discontent regarding TWA is insignificant compared to what's going on at US Airways.
11-29-2013, 07:25 AM
#1863
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
You left this out:
Pursuant to the Court’s resolution of the motions for summary judgment,
IT IS ORDERED
Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is
entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Associa
tion on Count II of the complaint. US Airline
Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation
provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose.
DATED this 11
th
day of October, 2012
The problem with quoting any of it is that this DJ is a new game, just as AOL said. Different circumstances with the MOU. We'll just have to see what the Judge says this time.
But, since we are quoting Judge Silver let me add one of my favorites:
"MR. HARPER: When we get to this process here --
that's the process. When we get to the process --
Jen, can we put this back up, the timeline?
Your Honor, we go in to the post-August 15, 2013, and
moving in to the end of the year. We're saying when they go to
start that process, that they need to present the Nicolau Award
unless they have a legitimate union purpose for not doing so.
The touchstone is the legitimate union purpose.
THE COURT: Okay. Okay. I agree with you. But the
legitimated union purpose can be in representing everyone which
would also be the East Pilots and coming up with a combination;
right? You agree that there are a variety of different
seniority agreements --
MR. HARPER: There are a variety of seniority --
THE COURT: -- that can be fair to everyone."
Pursuant to the Court’s resolution of the motions for summary judgment,
IT IS ORDERED
Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is
entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Associa
tion on Count II of the complaint. US Airline
Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation
provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose.
DATED this 11
th
day of October, 2012
The problem with quoting any of it is that this DJ is a new game, just as AOL said. Different circumstances with the MOU. We'll just have to see what the Judge says this time.
But, since we are quoting Judge Silver let me add one of my favorites:
"MR. HARPER: When we get to this process here --
that's the process. When we get to the process --
Jen, can we put this back up, the timeline?
Your Honor, we go in to the post-August 15, 2013, and
moving in to the end of the year. We're saying when they go to
start that process, that they need to present the Nicolau Award
unless they have a legitimate union purpose for not doing so.
The touchstone is the legitimate union purpose.
THE COURT: Okay. Okay. I agree with you. But the
legitimated union purpose can be in representing everyone which
would also be the East Pilots and coming up with a combination;
right? You agree that there are a variety of different
seniority agreements --
MR. HARPER: There are a variety of seniority --
THE COURT: -- that can be fair to everyone."
11-29-2013, 07:42 AM
#1864
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: Done with that
Posts: 191
Reading this thread would give a rock a headache. So much third grade bull**** whining I find it difficult to believe you are "professional pilots". And most here don't have a clue what is going to happen. I read the trial transcripts (Silverman ****ed of Judge Silver too many times to be smart). The East put in Hummel's testimony so it could be used on appeal (betting Judge Silver won't allow). I read the post filings. East and West lost. He who can pay the best attorney wins. That would be USA and Robert Siegal. Read his October 13 filing. That is the blueprint. That is what is going to happen. Looking at the UAL and CAL arbitration, you people are going to be one step below CAL. Neither East or West will be very happy. Any group that tries to overcome the MB arbitration are too stupid to breathe (and deserve to be taken to the cleaners by a hungry attorney- hey we gotta eat too), much less fly professionally. I also predict when you do lose you will be paying a lot (I mean a LOT) of legal fees to the winners. I predict APA will just say sit down, do your job and shut the hell up. And being the majority I am sure you will agree to their demands. Won't you?
11-29-2013, 08:20 AM
#1865
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
Yeah, and tell them how a guy in indoc was placed senior to a guy with 16-17 years LOS (never furloughed)and that placement great accelerated the bottom of the west list advancement at the expense of the east. Go ahead, tell them.
Of course even your attorney didn't understand what the Nic did:
"Q. Where do you stand on the Nicolau list?
A. I was put behind someone who was 16.4 years behind me and
I believe they are 15 years younger than me as well.
You were placed in the same spot as you held on your east list.
Q. Why were you put there?
A. It was the determination of the arbitrator.
Q. Based on what?
A. Based on the criteria he utilized to produce the award.
Q. Kind of hurts to say but he put you there because you were
on furlough at the time of the merger; is that correct?
A. No, sir. I've never served a single day on furlough.
Q. You weren't on furlough when these two airlines merged?
A. That's correct, yes.
Q. Thank you."
No really don't.My guess is the 99% of them don't care! We've been over all of this a million times. Judge Silver will rule soon and then we will find out the next course of action.
Of course even your attorney didn't understand what the Nic did:
"Q. Where do you stand on the Nicolau list?
A. I was put behind someone who was 16.4 years behind me and
I believe they are 15 years younger than me as well.
You were placed in the same spot as you held on your east list.
Q. Why were you put there?
A. It was the determination of the arbitrator.
Q. Based on what?
A. Based on the criteria he utilized to produce the award.
Q. Kind of hurts to say but he put you there because you were
on furlough at the time of the merger; is that correct?
A. No, sir. I've never served a single day on furlough.
Q. You weren't on furlough when these two airlines merged?
A. That's correct, yes.
Q. Thank you."
No really don't.My guess is the 99% of them don't care! We've been over all of this a million times. Judge Silver will rule soon and then we will find out the next course of action.
Never in my life have I had to experience such a complete sense of entitlement as I have seen with the east.
When the judge rules against you we all expect the east to do as they have thus far and that is hold up the show with fruitless appeals that have zero chance of success.
WD at AWA
11-29-2013, 08:36 AM
#1866
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
WD and cacti you're right. I just read my post and it's inaccurate so I redacted the word "pilots" from the second sentence.
So, I acknowledge that we don't know the opinions of individual APA pilots, but we do in fact know that APA's public position on the subject of Nic is neutral. For APA to do anything else would be to accept Nic or accept some tacit form of liability in AOLs pending DFR attempt to sue anyone involved. APA has so far disregarded AOL's attempts coordinate with APA.
The point I'm trying to make is that USAPA is not the only one possibly managing a deceptive legal strategy to avoid liability that may or may not exist. American, US Airways and APA are managing their own Nic legal exposure and, unlike cactiboss, all of them will or won't say anything to come out smelling like a rose.
WD, I get by under your radar because I'm not pro-Nic or DOH.
Cacti, please stop insulting people on this forum. I know APC users who have been banned for far less.
So, I acknowledge that we don't know the opinions of individual APA pilots, but we do in fact know that APA's public position on the subject of Nic is neutral. For APA to do anything else would be to accept Nic or accept some tacit form of liability in AOLs pending DFR attempt to sue anyone involved. APA has so far disregarded AOL's attempts coordinate with APA.
The point I'm trying to make is that USAPA is not the only one possibly managing a deceptive legal strategy to avoid liability that may or may not exist. American, US Airways and APA are managing their own Nic legal exposure and, unlike cactiboss, all of them will or won't say anything to come out smelling like a rose.
WD, I get by under your radar because I'm not pro-Nic or DOH.
Cacti, please stop insulting people on this forum. I know APC users who have been banned for far less.
I think it fair to say that you get by under my radar because you are a 3rd list pilot and this really does not effect you that way it does us. We were here and you were hired after the fact. Now some 3rd list pilots might be effected due to original east and west pilots taking captain slots but even that would be minor.
I hope you can appreciate why west pilots are so angry about this. The east claimed to be versed in arbitration thus they set up the rules, they picked the arbitrator and they are the ones that said what ever he came up with they were going to have to live with. The have with this action brought shame on the entire profession and we don't trust them any further than we could throw them. If this had gone DOH it would have been over 6yrs ago and we would still be ALPA. I have no respect for liars or cheats thus I have no respect for the east. Sure I will let them ride reluctantly but I really want nothing to ever do with them. This does not apply to the 3rd list pilots as they were born into this war basically and have no choice but to go along.
WD at AWA
11-29-2013, 08:45 AM
#1867
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
Yes I am an infidel because I believe in HONOR and INTEGRITY. I believe in if I make a deal I stand by it. What is the term that is used for those who don't honor their word and lack integrity? Use that term to describe yourself next time you wish to toss insults!
WD at AWA
11-29-2013, 09:24 AM
#1868
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 409
The truth is you deserved to be stapled to our list. The east had one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. I look back and wish Parker had let that east anchor of and operation sink and then pick off the pieces. I bet he does too now but live and learn.
Yes I am an infidel because I believe in HONOR and INTEGRITY. I believe in if I make a deal I stand by it. What is the term that is used for those who don't honor their word and lack integrity? Use that term to describe yourself next time you wish to toss insults!
WD at AWA
Yes I am an infidel because I believe in HONOR and INTEGRITY. I believe in if I make a deal I stand by it. What is the term that is used for those who don't honor their word and lack integrity? Use that term to describe yourself next time you wish to toss insults!
WD at AWA
Honor and integrity, don't make me laugh. Like you have it :roll eyes:
I am not part of your group, nor have I ever applied.
You are an infidel because you throw around the word scab in much the same way the East pilot called you rookies. You are as emotional and ill mannered as he. You have no union religion. You have no honor nor integrity because you choose to fight with anger rather than reason--like some on the east. You are the same, and AWA hired a lot of you. I pity you.
11-29-2013, 10:17 AM
#1869
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
You must have some reading and critical thinking deficiencies. My point was to reinforce that the APA doesn't want any part of the seniority morass at US Airways. When you guys come up with a single legally recognized list, then SLI talks can seriously begin . . . and I think that's going be a while given the current vitriol at US. When we combine, take the big payraise and let the vitriol die along with the US Airways name.
With regards to ancient history with the TWA acquisition (as opposed to this which is a "merger"), the APA has a single recognized seniority list and one operating certificate. Any lingering discontent regarding TWA is insignificant compared to what's going on at US Airways.
With regards to ancient history with the TWA acquisition (as opposed to this which is a "merger"), the APA has a single recognized seniority list and one operating certificate. Any lingering discontent regarding TWA is insignificant compared to what's going on at US Airways.
It's a good thing the APA wants nothing to do with our mess, it keeps their hands clean. You do know that the west thinks otherwise, right? They think that if they get a good ruling and USAPA appeals it, that they APA will take over and drop the appeal. Do you agree.
You say that we need to come up with ONE recognized list. Have you read the MOU? That's not what it says.
Your post came off as very condescending and arrogant. On this board no one is forcing you to any way deal with our mess. You came to this thread and made pronouncements about what WE need to do.
11-29-2013, 10:20 AM
#1870
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
You must have some reading and critical thinking deficiencies. My point was to reinforce that the APA doesn't want any part of the seniority morass at US Airways. When you guys come up with a single legally recognized list, then SLI talks can seriously begin . . . and I think that's going be a while given the current vitriol at US. When we combine, take the big payraise and let the vitriol die along with the US Airways name.
With regards to ancient history with the TWA acquisition (as opposed to this which is a "merger"), the APA has a single recognized seniority list and one operating certificate. Any lingering discontent regarding TWA is insignificant compared to what's going on at US Airways.
With regards to ancient history with the TWA acquisition (as opposed to this which is a "merger"), the APA has a single recognized seniority list and one operating certificate. Any lingering discontent regarding TWA is insignificant compared to what's going on at US Airways.
WD at AWA
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