AOL update
02-22-2013, 08:25 PM
#171
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
You chopped off your cut and paste a little early. Shocker. Here is what Judge Silver said right below what you quoted above:
"But being “bound” by the Transition Agreement has very little meaning in the context
of the present case. It is undisputed that the Transition Agreement can be modified at any
time “by written agreement of [USAPA] and the [US Airways].” (Doc. 156-3 at 38).
Moreover, USAPA and US Airways are now engaged in negotiations for an entirely new
collective bargaining agreement and there is no obvious impediment to USAPA and US
Airways negotiating and agreeing upon any seniority regime they wish. As explained by the
Ninth Circuit, “seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement, and so
may be revised or abrogated by later negotiated changes in this agreement.”
Now, you say the Nic lives in the TA, right? When does the TA die?
"But being “bound” by the Transition Agreement has very little meaning in the context
of the present case. It is undisputed that the Transition Agreement can be modified at any
time “by written agreement of [USAPA] and the [US Airways].” (Doc. 156-3 at 38).
Moreover, USAPA and US Airways are now engaged in negotiations for an entirely new
collective bargaining agreement and there is no obvious impediment to USAPA and US
Airways negotiating and agreeing upon any seniority regime they wish. As explained by the
Ninth Circuit, “seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement, and so
may be revised or abrogated by later negotiated changes in this agreement.”
Now, you say the Nic lives in the TA, right? When does the TA die?
02-22-2013, 08:37 PM
#172
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
A very interesting phrase..."Not getting what never happened" -Well...yeahhh, I guess so...as if the "not getting" happened in a vacuum...just a typical, inadvertantly unavoidable "administrative" delay in the implimentation of an arbitration award, no doubt. In fact I might even venture to say that the "never happened" is the whole point of the matter...
Something "did happen", the pilots of America West were prevented from being integrated into the whole of the combined USAir pilot group in a manner that was deemed fair and equitable by an experienced neutral arbitrator...The USAir pilots reneged on their "good faith" promise to abide by the award.
USAPA was legally elected by the majority of US Airways pilots to be their CBA. As a new CBA the law allows it to renegotiate all sections of the previous contract. They PROPOSED to change section 22 from the Nicolau award, as reached in the transition agreement, to a DOH seniority list, with conditions and restrictions. There has never been any substantive negotiations on that PROPOSAL because a group of west pilot filed an unripe lawsuit and a federal judge let it go to trial. It was overturned on appeal, and denied hearing by the SCOTUS. By that time US Airways had it's financial crack in a mess because of fuel prices, the recession, bad fuel hedging, and investments in auction rate securities. IMHO they saw what a great delay tactic the courts could be and came up with the great DJ idea to save money while they restructured their debt and hopefully the economy turned. They filed that suit shortly after the Addington case was dismissed and we have been fighting it ever since.
To date, there has been NO substantive negotiation on section 22 of our contract. Our transition agreement calls for separate operations until we have a JCBA, and the law suits, started by the west group, have prevented that.
Now, had we just implemented the Nicolau award, none of that would have happened. But you have to go back to 2007 when the award came out. The company had just come out with the awful "Kirby" comprehensive proposal. No one was in a hurry to accept that, it was not worth having if it included the Nicolau award. Things went along, ALPA tried to get us to come to some agreement, nothing happened. Then came along USAPA and the great recession of 2008 and the rest is history.
Bottom line. Our transition agreement calls for a ratified JCBA before the Nicolau could be used. We didn't get one and there was no timeline to force it. The west says the current MOU is a JCBA, I disagree, but we'll see.
02-22-2013, 08:39 PM
#173
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Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Of course it does, to every single member. And when the time is right any member can question whether their rights have been looked after and if they think not, they can file suit and try to win. Just as it does with every section it negotiates. No, I know they inherited the Nic, just as they did the min. fleet that the TA generated. Does it live on forever. Again, when does the TA die?
02-22-2013, 08:48 PM
#174
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Of course it does, to every single member. And when the time is right any member can question whether their rights have been looked after and if they think not, they can file suit and try to win. Just as it does with every section it negotiates. No, I know they inherited the Nic, just as they did the min. fleet that the TA generated. Does it live on forever. Again, when does the TA die?
02-22-2013, 08:52 PM
#175
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Wow, I'm surprised you admit that. You need to account for everything that has transpired since the Nic Came out, usapa isn't some union trying to do what's best for ALL its members, usapa was formed specifically to give east pilots a superior list over what Nicolau gave them, a proven fact that doesn't disappear just because we are merging. It has been found illegal once and anyone would half a brain would give it a good chance of being found illegal again.
02-22-2013, 09:32 PM
#176
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
From the TA
Operational Pilot Integration
A. Except as provided in paragraph B. below, the airline operations of America West and US Airways, with respect to pilots, shall be merged no later than twelve (12) months following the later of (i) completion of the integrated pilot seniority list and (ii) negotiation of the Single Agreement provided that if by that date a single FAA operating certificate has not been issued, the airline operations, with respect to pilots, will be merged effective with the first bid period following thirty (30) days after the issuance of such certificate. The Airline Parties will make every reasonable effort in good faith to secure a single FAA operating certificate for America West and US Airways as promptly as practicable. The merger of the airline operations, with respect to pilots, under this paragraph A. is defined as the “Operational Pilot Integration.”
The TA modified both east west contracts, so did the Mou( fleet mins, etc). The mou didn't change the Nic as the list in both of our contracts as modified by the ta
Last edited by cactiboss; 02-22-2013 at 09:46 PM.
02-23-2013, 05:50 AM
#177
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
h. US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for
changing the seniority lists (plural) currently in effect (that's not the Nic) at US Airways other than through the process set forth in
this Paragraph 10. Paragraph 10 is the SLI between US and AA under M-B.
Notwithstanding the foregoing, any changes made to the MTA prior to the implementation of the JCBA
will apply with equal force to all pilots.
Accordingly, except
for those terms specifically identified in Paragraph 3, the Parties agree that each term of the MTA
shall be applicable to all US Airways pilots at the earliest practicable time for each such term, and
such terms, when applicable, shall govern and displace any conflicting or wholly or partially
inconsistent provision of the former US Airways pilot agreements or the status quo arising thereunder.
Once the MTA has been fully implemented, it shall fully displace and render a nullity any prior
collective bargaining agreements applicable to US Airways pilots and any status quo arising
thereunder.
I don't know cacti, maybe you and your attorneys finally have this one licked. But to me it seems that the MTA alters they TA, and the MTA says listS in effect, and then THAT is rolled into the JCBA with everything else being voided. I think there are gray areas and it will probably come down to who has the best lawyers. But, I really can't see some of the arguments being made by AOL, such as their update saying that the MOU is a JCBA.
We'll see.
Last edited by R57 relay; 02-23-2013 at 06:10 AM.
02-23-2013, 06:21 AM
#178
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Bigg Bird!!
Posts: 599
The AOL cult. "Extracting revenue from its members one court case at a time"..You know I've always wondered if AOL has ever obtained a SECOND opinion from other legal counsel...It appears to me that their attorneys are just keeping them on the "Nic" leach until they are bone dry..
....Just a simple tip. Never take out a second mortgage on your home to pay for legal bills.
Unless:
A. your in trouble with the law
B. You're wife is divorcing you
C. Your Wife is in trouble with the law (optional)
D. Your sex change operation, which triggered
the divorce, is costing you a mint!!
E. Your wife's sex change has triggered a divorce
and her new "squeeze" Bertha is suing you for
the house.....
....Just a simple tip. Never take out a second mortgage on your home to pay for legal bills.
Unless:
A. your in trouble with the law
B. You're wife is divorcing you
C. Your Wife is in trouble with the law (optional)
D. Your sex change operation, which triggered
the divorce, is costing you a mint!!
E. Your wife's sex change has triggered a divorce
and her new "squeeze" Bertha is suing you for
the house.....
02-23-2013, 11:24 AM
#179
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Aol 2/23
February 23, 2013
Leonidas Update
Dear
On Wednesday, February 20, 2013, USAPA filed a 38-page “Motion to Expedite” with the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in the company’s Declaratory Judgment (DJ) case. (Click here to view.)
US Airways filed a “Notice of Appeal” on December 31, 2012 and they have until the end of March to file. Will US Airways follow through with an appeal? The MOU makes the DJ case almost irrelevant as its claim was submitted on the premise of a “Hobson’s choice” – If the company did not negotiate with USAPA for a seniority scheme other than the Nicolau Award under Section 6 of the RLA, then they would be faced with a possibility of a strike versus being sued by the West pilots for not using the legitimately arbitrated seniority solution. Now, there is only one side of the “Hobson’s choice” - be sued by West pilots for aiding and abetting USAPA for not honoring the arbitrated Nicolau Award going forward.
USAPA’s filing contains many of the same tired arguments that were first considered and addressed by George Nicolau. But we find the following pair of statements to be incriminating. USAPA's very first sentence reads:
“Defendant-Appellee US Airline Pilots Association (“USAPA”) is the exclusive bargaining representative for all pilots employed by Plaintiff-Appellant US Airways, Inc. (“US Airways).”
Then, on Page 4, USAPA states:
“USAPA...has repeatedly sought to engage the former America West Pilots and the West Pilot Class in substantive discussions to resolve the seniority dispute.”
How can USAPA exclusively represent US Airways Pilots and simultaneously negotiate with West Pilots? The answer is simple: They Can’t. When attempting to negotiate with West Pilots, USAPA defaults to what it has always done - representing just the East Pilots. This immediately places USAPA in violation of its legal obligation as the exclusive bargaining representative of all US Airways pilots. The second statement is an admission that USAPA is violating its DFR by not representing West pilots.
Gary Hummel claims in his latest “President’s Message” that West Pilots will attempt to delay or stop the merger. If so, this is only a consequence of USAPA's failing to provide, “...[t]he West Pilots a union that will not abrogate the Nicolau Award without a legitimate purpose.” We would like nothing better than to avoid court altogether but the West Pilot Class, as represented by our legal firm, will use all means at its disposal to defend our seniority rights. We continue to expect the company and USAPA to honor the obligations created in the 2005 America West/US Airways merger.
With the recent MOU ratification along with the merger announcement, there are substantial legal activities now occurring to defend the West pilots’ Seniority rights.
We thank you for your continued contributions as your career undoubtedly depends on it.
Leonidas, LLC
Click here to Contribute http://www.cactuspilot.com
Leonidas Update
Dear
On Wednesday, February 20, 2013, USAPA filed a 38-page “Motion to Expedite” with the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in the company’s Declaratory Judgment (DJ) case. (Click here to view.)
US Airways filed a “Notice of Appeal” on December 31, 2012 and they have until the end of March to file. Will US Airways follow through with an appeal? The MOU makes the DJ case almost irrelevant as its claim was submitted on the premise of a “Hobson’s choice” – If the company did not negotiate with USAPA for a seniority scheme other than the Nicolau Award under Section 6 of the RLA, then they would be faced with a possibility of a strike versus being sued by the West pilots for not using the legitimately arbitrated seniority solution. Now, there is only one side of the “Hobson’s choice” - be sued by West pilots for aiding and abetting USAPA for not honoring the arbitrated Nicolau Award going forward.
USAPA’s filing contains many of the same tired arguments that were first considered and addressed by George Nicolau. But we find the following pair of statements to be incriminating. USAPA's very first sentence reads:
“Defendant-Appellee US Airline Pilots Association (“USAPA”) is the exclusive bargaining representative for all pilots employed by Plaintiff-Appellant US Airways, Inc. (“US Airways).”
Then, on Page 4, USAPA states:
“USAPA...has repeatedly sought to engage the former America West Pilots and the West Pilot Class in substantive discussions to resolve the seniority dispute.”
How can USAPA exclusively represent US Airways Pilots and simultaneously negotiate with West Pilots? The answer is simple: They Can’t. When attempting to negotiate with West Pilots, USAPA defaults to what it has always done - representing just the East Pilots. This immediately places USAPA in violation of its legal obligation as the exclusive bargaining representative of all US Airways pilots. The second statement is an admission that USAPA is violating its DFR by not representing West pilots.
Gary Hummel claims in his latest “President’s Message” that West Pilots will attempt to delay or stop the merger. If so, this is only a consequence of USAPA's failing to provide, “...[t]he West Pilots a union that will not abrogate the Nicolau Award without a legitimate purpose.” We would like nothing better than to avoid court altogether but the West Pilot Class, as represented by our legal firm, will use all means at its disposal to defend our seniority rights. We continue to expect the company and USAPA to honor the obligations created in the 2005 America West/US Airways merger.
With the recent MOU ratification along with the merger announcement, there are substantial legal activities now occurring to defend the West pilots’ Seniority rights.
We thank you for your continued contributions as your career undoubtedly depends on it.
Leonidas, LLC
Click here to Contribute http://www.cactuspilot.com
02-23-2013, 11:41 AM
#180
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
How can USAPA exclusively represent US Airways Pilots and simultaneously negotiate with West Pilots? The answer is simple: They Can’t.
http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/9th_...o_Expedite.pdf
http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/9th_...o_Expedite.pdf
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