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11-19-2013, 12:08 PM
#1681
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
I'm responding to posts in the "OFFICIAL: Suit Settled, Merger to Happen" thread that should have originally been posted here:
Sorry, for the delay—I've been keeping busy these last couple days with second jobs.
Okay, so shrinking economies are not fun. East and West were each failing carriers both in and near bankruptcy. As hard as life had been for each group it proved impossible for these groups to accept the idea of further lowering expectations—jobs/furloughs were literally on the line. Both East and West leadership failed to cooperate effectively. May we attribute this to incompatible or incompetent West and/or East union leadership? —Maybe. Regardless, people respond to incentives and our legal system certainly makes them available. Each group sought every opportunity to manipulate facts and reality to seek advantages over the other.
The East/West process was very disingenuous and so was everyone involved. This theme of ill-will and manipulation plays into the legal system that we, as a nation, live under. Legalese has nothing to do with Justice and nothing to do with what is right. Both East and West leadership subscribed to these notions and I hold both groups responsible for employing such wretched context.
Code:
But we do live in a world where people do not have to honor obligations. I'm not advocating it, but look at bankruptcy, foreclosure, how Goldsman Sachs sold financial instruments they knew were going to fail, and the US governments near default two days ago. We live in a world based on law not justice. People often manipulate the legal system to (and do) get away with murder. Flybywire44 on 10-18-2013 http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/am...ml#post1504104
I don't know what "the west was supposed to do," but (and in keeping with the theme of mutual ill-will and manipulation) I think it is safe to say that West pilots have the option to contact their PHX USAPA representatives to ask them "to do anything."
More directly, West ALPA leadership's last chance to move SLI/JCBA talks forward were the Nicolai MOU talks that took place between East & West ALPA. These negotiations took place weeks before USAPA was voted in... dreadfully ironic.
Let us remember that after NIC was awarded East ALPA suspended all contract negotiations and ALPA National threatened, on behalf of West ALPA through Capt Prater, to appoint a new MEC for the East from another airline to run the US Airways MEC and negotiate a new contract for US Air East. But these threats from ALPA National (and West ALPA) stalled when everyone realized USAPA had started gaining serious traction among East pilots. West ALPA stubbornly refused to negotiate an MOU to the NIC until the 11th hour before USAPA swiftly became certified for a vote. I think MOU negotiations lasted a couple weeks before West and East ALPA were dissolved.
The very threat of USAPA forming triggered a Nicolai MOU, but also killed it prematurely. —This is USAPA's greatest sin in my opinion.
Finally, please don't give me a hard time for not wanting to take sides in this BS as I discriminate equally.
11-19-2013, 12:16 PM
#1682
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Do you honestly believe usapa has a case worth appealing? Ok I have to ask, on what grounds would you base this appeal? I mean 321fo is so lost he is stuck on the MOU and failed to take heed that the company is talking about PRIOR to not after the fact.
So tell me Relay what are the usapa issues that you think they can appeal?
WD at AWA
So tell me Relay what are the usapa issues that you think they can appeal?
WD at AWA
That said, do you really think the value of the appeal will have anything to do with it for either side? I've been told that both sides have automatic right to appeal and if that is true I fully expect the loser to do it.
11-19-2013, 12:21 PM
#1683
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
The West DIDN'T HAVE TO DO OR GIVE UP ANYTHING-TRUE. But, under the TA, with the circumstances neither did the east. We all made our decisions and here we are, letting other circumstances dictate them
11-19-2013, 12:21 PM
#1684
Flies With The Hat On
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: Right of the Left Seat
Posts: 1,339
Originally Posted by flybywire
Let us remember that after NIC was awarded East ALPA suspended all contract negotiations and ALPA National threatened, on behalf of West ALPA through Capt Prater, to appoint a new MEC for the East from another airline to run the US Airways MEC and negotiate a new contract for US Air East. But these threats from ALPA National (and West ALPA) stalled when everyone realized USAPA had started gaining serious traction among East pilots. West ALPA stubbornly refused to negotiate an MOU to the NIC until the 11th hour before USAPA swiftly became certified for a vote. I think MOU negotiations lasted a couple weeks before West and East ALPA were dissolved.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/am...ml#post1523366
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/am...ml#post1523366
See this is what makes you not only a fool, but an ignorant fool. Alpa did no such thing, the east pilots are the one's that walked out of negotiations. Looks like you suffer from the eastinfection syndrome, where truth and facts don't exist. Now, go do your research, and come back when you got your facts straight.
Stop insulting me and re-read my posts before you reply.
11-19-2013, 12:32 PM
#1685
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
So, the east walked out an almost complete contract, is that the wests fault, equally? Is it the wests fault "equally" usapa threw out 2 years of completed negotiations and started from the beginning? Is it the wests fault "equally" that the east used alpa resources to promote usapa? Is it the wests fault "equally" the east refuses to this day to honor an arbitration they voluntarily agreed to live by (in writing btw)? So is the west "equally" responsible for these things that happened?
11-19-2013, 12:36 PM
#1686
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
The west lived up to it's agreements, correct? The agreement was for final and binding arbitration to arrive at a single list. There is only one party that didn't live up to that agreement, correct? So R57, you believe that the party that lived up to the agreement is "equally" to blame as the party that violated that agreement for a "final and binding" resolution?
11-19-2013, 12:42 PM
#1687
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Blame? I don't blame you guys, you did what you thought you needed to do to defend your rights. When I have an issue with you guys it's when you ignore or distort the facts. You ignore the FACT that the TA, since we didn't have a JCBA before the SLI came out, gave us veto power. Or like when you make inaccurate comments like "you walked out of an almost complete contract". We didn't. The majority of sections might have been closed, but the big ones were still open and the release of the Nic made that irrelevant. The cost of a contract completely changed when that happened. Those are just two of the dozens I have countered from you and other westies over the years.
You didn't have to do anything, but you needed to be prepared to accept the results of that decision. You haven't.
You didn't have to do anything, but you needed to be prepared to accept the results of that decision. You haven't.
11-19-2013, 12:52 PM
#1688
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
11-19-2013, 12:56 PM
#1689
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
You really are an idiot.
11-19-2013, 01:17 PM
#1690
Banned
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
It was dismissed on "ripeness" not on facts and still referenced by the courts and in legal filings. Our stagnation was caused by you and your willingness to undercut the west pilots.
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