R57 relay

US Airways was on death's door. But the health of US was of no significance to AWA prior to the merger. AWA was not going to avoid the industries issues if US went away. The merger kept AWA from facing them.

I just use Doug Parker's words.

"I think that's where this some of this
comes from with the "we saved you" stuff. But you
got to finish the story.

USAir -- America West was not in
dramatically better shape. While we weren't on the
verge of, you know, going away liquidating, as I
have said a number of times, I believe without a
merger -- well, let me tell you. By putting the two
companies together, a lot of new money came in is
the answer to your question.

America West did not have the money to go
fund the merger or anything close to it. And,
indeed, I think America West standalone -- this
is -- this gets some America West people upset
because, you know, they -- anyway, whatever reason.

But my view is, and a highly educated view
on this point, is that America West would have been
bankrupt by the end of 2005.

If you recall, by the end of 2005, Delta
and Northwest both filed, and I don't think America
West could have -- I'm pretty sure -- I'm actually,
virtually certain that America West would have filed
bankruptcy because we didn't have enough cash to
make it through the winter in that environment.

So -- and then more importantly, as it
relates to America West, the reason the merger was
so important to America West is America West was an
airline that lived off a cost structure advantage.

Much like I describe to US Airways
employees now, how we don't have the same revenue
generating capabilities as American, Delta, and
United, who are bigger than us. America West had
that in spades.

A Phoenix hub never had the ability to
generate the kind of revenues US Airways did, for
example. But the airline survived 25 years by
having much lower costs, and those lower costs
almost entirely labor based.

So what had happened is, is you, you know,
looking around the world, here at US Airways, for
example, had gotten its labor costs through two
bankruptcies and a lot of pain down to matching
America West.

That did not look like a good formula for
the America West -- for America West Airlines. You
have an airline now that has, not the same ability
to generate revenues, and the same costs as the guys
who can generate a lot more revenues than you.
Those airlines go away.

So whether or not America West would have
filed, you know, in late 2005, like I believe, that
airline, I'm certain, wouldn't have been able to
stand alone on its own in today's environment. You
know, much like Frontier, was very -- it's very
similar I think to America West.

You know, small West Coast, whole --
entirely labor-cost-based cost advantage. And, you
know, Frontier went bankrupt. They are still
floating around somewhere, but, you know, they are a
fifth of the size they used to be. And I think
that's the best I think America West could have done
on its own."

Wiskey Driver

Relay I am being honest here, I cant really follow your post and I am being serious. All those numbers and chopped sentences are driving me nuts. I dont know if that was from your phone or what but if you can clean it up and condense we can continue

WD at AWA

R57 relay

There you go, the numbers are gone. The chopped sentences are Parker's as it's a transcript of a crew news session.

We've been through this a dozen times.

flybywire44

Holy cow, I've never read this before. I had no idea that east and west were financially on similar pages at the time of the merger.

Gosh.

Wiskey Driver

I asked some very specific questions and you give me sound bites and quotes that would be necessary for need of merger. This is not unlike what is happening right now with AMR. Parker "we need this", "If we dont merge we cant not compete and that puts us at a grave disadvantage" etc etc etc.

I asked for facts and you give me Parker's words to attempt to make your point.

Now can you answer my questions or is your answer Parker's words???

WD at AWA

Wiskey Driver

Things are not as they appeared. I will leave it at that

WD at AWA

R57 relay

I told you that US was on death's door. That's a pretty big admission and I thought it would answer all your questions in one. Thing is, as I said, the state of US had nothing to do with the state of AWA prior to the merger. Having someone else beat you to the grave doesn't help your mortality, unless you can benefit from it, and AWA was in no shape to benefit from the death of US-THEY HAD NO MONEY. By merging with US(without spending a dime, and cashing in from the financing it brought) both became healthy enough to survive, and as of today, thrive. The merger saved us both, so from that day forward we should have been on the same footing.

Those words from Parker are from years after the merger. There was no reason for him to say them then but because they were the truth. Actually it would have benefited him to lie then. The US pilots were(are) very unhappy to be paid less than the west from day one,when we should have been. It would have been better to say that AWA saved US and make them feel lucky to have a job. He couldn't. The 10k's, documents and articles about the merger had the truth out there already.

R57 relay

US was way further down the road than AWA. AWA wasn't facing an impending liquidation, but it's future wasn't all roses like some like to say. The west pilots have this vision that it was going to be 7 year upgrades for ever and the facts don't support it.

Both companies needed the merger. It put them both miles ahead of where they would have been absent it. It's just that had the Nicolau award been implemented the west would have felt very little pain from the events of '08-'09. It would have come from the east hides, again.

Thing is, not one letter of these pages matters. It doesn't matter one bit about my opinion of the Nicolau award, or WD's or cacti's. It will be used or it won't. Prior to the AA merger I thought that ultimately it would be. When I read the MOU it seems to say that it was discarded, along with USAPA's DOH scheme, for a 3 way with AA. But, it's not up to any of us, it's up to a judge. I'm just too hardheaded to not answer the BS. :-)

Wiskey Driver

No you answered to my satisfaction for the most part and I have to say that satisfaction is probably not the best word to use but its all I got after a restless night.

In the grand scheme of things considering the ACTUAL state at the time in question, should AWA had to feel any pains at all? I completely understand the position of the AAA pilots with regards to having had pretty bad careers at that time but that in no way should be passed on to others. The two groups had an agreement to go to arbitration and abide by its ruling. The east have since refused to honor that agreement citing "the TA allows us to do this". The TA was never intended to be used as a method of avoiding the ruling of the agreed upon process.

The east have sought for ways of getting out of the agreement now for the better part 6 years. They want a do over by submitting 3 lists from LCC and that should not be permitted and I can almost bet that it would end up right back in a Federal court for years to come. Now I know that the MB is final and binding once submitted but the argument would be that there was an arbitration result issued in our case and that there are mounds of evidence to show the parties entered into an agreement (contract) and the east has breached that contract by refusing to negotiate in good faith then removing the agent (ALPA) and instilling a new agent using majority (all east) against the minority (all west) Then submitting to the company a DOH list that benefits only east and places the west pilots at a significant disadvantage.

The whole case should turn on defining binding arbitration AND if a party should be allowed to disregard based solely in the fact that they don't like it.

WD at AWA

R57 relay

Yes, the west should have had to share the pain. A lot of the pain came from the west system. It was coming to you no matter what and the merger eased it. It should have been shared, but Nicolau would have added it to the east. You want to capture this one period in time and say that it would have always been that way. The facts point to another direction, plus many of you guys don't even know the real state of AWA at the time. You think you know better than Parker.

I don't agree that the merger should have made up for previous east losses, that would be a windfall. But, they shouldn't have been set back even more, as the Nicolau would have done.

So, for years and years of complaining about USAPA "using the system for other than it was designed" you guys do the same thing with the MOU, and you say you will sue if it doesn't work. Priceless.

READ THE MOU. WHAT DOES IT SAY? Not what AOL told you it said, not because they told you to vote for it for ripeness, not what the group that you would trust to tell you if the sun was up said, but what does the document you voted YES for say?