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Old 10-24-2013, 05:49 PM
  #1581  
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so if the judge says that the mou is a contract and the nic should be implemented but the merger doesn't happen and then the east and west get a jcba with parker what would stop that ruling from applying to that?
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:54 PM
  #1582  
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Originally Posted by cactiboss
You lived up to your reputation that's for sure. The AA Merger committee chairman was next to me "sizing" up the competition, you left quite the impression.
I wasn't there scoots, so I didn't live up to anything. I bet he was impressed with you.

I'd bet they are laughing at all of us as they plan the next merger while we fight over the last one.
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Old 10-24-2013, 05:56 PM
  #1583  
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Originally Posted by CanoePilot
so if the judge says that the mou is a contract and the nic should be implemented but the merger doesn't happen and then the east and west get a jcba with parker what would stop that ruling from applying to that?
Would serve them right for helping push this farce through, but no. Back to square one.
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:20 PM
  #1584  
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Originally Posted by CanoePilot
so if the judge says that the mou is a contract and the nic should be implemented but the merger doesn't happen and then the east and west get a jcba with parker what would stop that ruling from applying to that?
The judge won't rule,until the merger is approved.
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:21 PM
  #1585  
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Originally Posted by cactiboss
The judge won't rule,until the merger is approved.
What if it's not? Does she dismiss the case?
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by R57 relay
I wasn't there scoots, so I didn't live up to anything. I bet he was impressed with you.

I'd bet they are laughing at all of us as they plan the next merger while we fight over the last one.
By you I mean usapa. That Pauley is who he was there to watch, I'm sure the apa can't believe believe its luck.

Last edited by cactiboss; 10-24-2013 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:14 PM
  #1587  
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Here is the video deposition of usapa's founder and easthole in chief Bradford:

Part 1:

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/West...n_Part_One.mpg

Part 2:

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/West...n_Part_Two.mpg
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:07 PM
  #1588  
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This came across my email.

Sent: 10/25/2013 10:04:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: [phillypilot] Re: Impressions on the Addington II Trial



I talked to some pilots that were at the Addington II trial in PHX and here are some of their impressions. As it is difficult to get all the facts straight and for a closer look at the trial, I suggest you read the transcripts.

In a nut shell, they felt that things for us started out slowly but by the middle of the trial we were doing very well. Towards the end, it was difficult to tell how we were doing. That's it in a nutshell. Now for a more in-depth analysis.

I suggest you read the transcripts of the trial for a complete picture of what happened. I am only giving you some highlights, but the impression of people that were there is that we put on a vigorous defense, our people did credit to us and that if the Judge rules on the law, we will prevail. Remember that the burden of proof is on the Plaintiff..

The Addington plaintiff's whole premise was that USAPA was only started to get rid of Nicolau and is guilty of DFR due to what they say was our "requirement" to include Nicolau in the MOU. They used a deposition by Steve Bradford to try to get him to admit that the sole purpose of USAPA was to circumvent the Nicolau award. Steve did a very credible job in explaining the reason we left ALPA was because of LOA 93, our pensions and numerous examples of why we felt that ALPA no longer represented the pilots at US Airways. The seniority issue was just the final straw in a long list of issues. So the issues as I see it are: Did USAPA commit a DFR?, Does USAPA have to go to McCaskill Bond with the Nic as their list?, Does USAPA owe legal fees?, and is the West entitled to a Board seat at Mccaskill Bond?

The trial started on day one with the Plaintiffs calling their witnesses, allowing for cross and recross. One of the highlights of the trial was when one of their pilots named Afshin Iranpour testified. He was a complete embarrassment on the stand and had to explain why he threatened west pilots in emails that were not in support of Leonidas. He had been an East pilot and while on furlough, took a job with the West and had a chance to select which side to remain. When questioned as to his recalls on the East, he was unable to remember when, if or how many times he had been offered recall and when asked "all things being equal, wouldn't you go where you made more money", he responded that money wasn't everything. Of course he failed to mention that he would gain over a thousand numbers from the pilot next to him on the East list if the Nic was instituted. He told the Judge that his threats were just a "joke". The Judge was not amused.

From many perspectives of those that were very aware of actual events, many of the West testimonies were "questionable" at best and outright lies at worst. I guess it's OK for the West to "embellish" the truth when it suits them.

In fact, most of the hearing involved the west attorney's trying desperately to trick our people into saying some thing or not saying some thing that would hurt our defense and prove their assertions. They even went so far to use a letter I wrote some time ago in which I said or implied that our attorney Pat Szymanski said the Nicolau award was dead during an MOU road show. I don't remember the letter and it is a mystery to me why they thought what I think or write is relevant since I hold no positions and never have with USAPA? I think it is because they may have wanted to imply fraud if we gave one MOU presentation to the East and another to the West which of course never occurred. They were also very disturbed by the language of Section 10 in the MOU and most specifically in Section 10h. Read the transcripts carefully as this is the area dealing with how seniority will be determined and this is the area where it indicates that the MOU replaces the Transition Agreement. I guess they are now trying to say that USAPA used "trickery" in getting them to vote for the MOU. There of course was no credible evidence to this allegation.

At the end of day one and when the Plaintiff's rested their case, our lead attorney, Pat Szymanski called for the Judge to dismiss the case. One of their attorney's, Andrew Jacob, got up and spoke at length, using every phrase possible to discredit USAPA. It is a good read and probably one of the reasons the West are back in an uproar, including calling us "scabs" when in fact they are the ones trying to steal our jobs and attrition.

Throughout his speech, Jacob must have used the term "Legitimate Union Purpose" a hundred times. I guess the reason for this is that since Judge Silver, in a previous ruling, said that if we have a Legitimate Union Purpose then USAPA is free to negotiate any seniority they wish. If they can prove there is no Legitimate Union Purpose, then they may be able to free her from her previous ruling? In any case, as I read this and you can see for yourself; the Legitimate Union Purpose cannot be more clear. Why the apparent legal strategy seems to talk around the issue, if I were to put it in a short sentence, I would say that the Legitimate Union Purpose is to increase the Pay and Benefits for "all" pilots, and the MOU does just that. Of course that is only my perspective and the Purpose may be much broader.

On day two, the conclusion of Steve Bradford's video deposition was viewed and there was discussion over Gary Hummel's medical condition. Apparently the Judge had previously been informed by Gary's cardiac surgeon that he should be able to testify. Since then our attorney's were told that he would not be able to testify or to be crossed. The Judge wanted to know why she was told one thing and then another. Was it a change in his condition or what? I guess they were unable to get in touch with the surgeon to speak to the Judge during day two and she was not pleased as it appeared that our side was hiding something. The defense offered Gary's Flight Surgeon, Pete Lambrough who was on call and available to testify as to Gary's medical state (I believe that he was actually with Gary when he had his heart attack) but the Judge did not contact him. Later the West made a point that Pete was a former East pilot and tried again to imply wrongdoing even though Pete had been Gary's doctor for years. The Judge did make what might imply a negative view of USAPA when she said she was "not surprised". I'm sure the West got some mileage out of that comment. Overall however, it would have been a positive for the head of USAPA to be on the stand as it gives credibility to our case. All we can say for certain is that it did not help our case for him to be absent during this most critical day in our history.

We then called our witnesses, starting out with Dean Colello, Negotiating Committee Chairman. Dean did a great job on the witness stand explaining how the MOU was negotiated and how it was presented to the pilots and how it is neutral as regard s to seniority and no matter how the west attorney's tried to trick him into saying things they thought would hurt our defense and help their case. Dean handled the questions professionally and truthfully; he came across as articulate, well spoken and credible.

Of the other witnesses, it seemed that the Judge paid particular attention to Merger Committee Chairman, Jess Pauley when he explained the many types of methods to integrate lists, how Nicolau gave no credence to Length of Service, how ALPA has since altered their Merger policy, how the most recent merger with UAL/CAL utilized a combination of Length of Service and Seat/Position, the advantages/disadvantages of combining multiple lists simultaneously, and the difference between Nicolau, Date of Hire with C+Rs, a dynamic list and a hybrid list.

The Plaintiffs of course tried to get Jess to say words that they felt would help their case but Jess was very cool and professional and did not make his comments personal. Another highlight was when the Plaintiff's attorney tried to embarrass Jess by asking him how the Nicolau award would affect him personally. Jess said that he would lose 16.4 years to a pilot 15 years his junior. When the attorney said that the reason for that was because of his furlough and that furloughees historically do not go above active pilots, Jess spoke up that he had "never been furloughed". The attorney then backtracked and tried to make his case by asking Jess if there has ever been another merger where people on furlough would go ahead of active pilots. Jess responded quickly with two examples. From what I hear, that attorney had serious egg on his face.

Apparently there was also a great deal of discussion regarding McCaskill Bond and separate representation starting with several of the depositions. I guess even our seniority neutral company has filed a brief to assist the West pilots to have separate representation. If you read Steve Bradford's deposition it clearly explains the dangers of separating individuals from their collective bargaining agent, how it would undermine the union and that it would be not only unprecedented but likely illegal.

Now we await the result but one thing is certain. Regardless of the outcome, we can expect another trip to the 9th Circuit and maybe even the Supreme Court.
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:38 PM
  #1589  
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Flyby...

I was not at the trial but I have read the two days of transcripts and I read Bradford's deposition. I am flying with one of the AOL guys. All I will say is that interpretations will vary based on perspective but in the end it is up to Judge Silver to see the testimony for what it is.

I will say that Pauley was a horrible witness for USAPA. If your buddy thinks he was cool and professional then I question his observations on the rest. Pawley's answers were rambling and chaotic. He kept repeating the phrase "we are serious men doing serious work". Most in the court were laughing at him. Also, when the chair of your merger committee can't tell you where you are on the list going into a SLI with another airline then you better be nervous, no matter what side you are on.

The upshot of the testimony by USAPA was that they have never had any intention to use the Nicolau. It was brought out that there were, in fact, two different spins put on paragraph 10h based on the audience. That was documented in notes. Also, it was brought out in testimony that Syzmanski wrote the language in 10h. For him to subsequently say that the Nic is dead and 10h was the reason is proof that he will not be able to represent the West in the SLI with the APA.

I do agree that the witnesses (except for Pauley) came out very prepared and well coached. They hit all their talking points. That's why cross is so important in testimony. I thought our lawyers did a better job on the cross examination. I thought they sifted through the BS and did a better job of getting at the nuggets of truth. Judge Silver, though, will be the final arbiter of who did the best.

I think at the least we will get our own representation at the MB arbitration. I believe that point was brought out quite clear. I don't know how she will rule on the legitimate union purpose for dumping the Nic since even the merger chair could not produce a different combined list. The USAPA strategy is to present two usairways lists to the APA, east and west. And USAPA wants to order the lists the way they want to. USAPA believes that the status quo for PHX is all we deserve, stagnation and all movement solely through west attrition indefinitely. I just don't see that passing the smell test.

The ripeness of the MOU triggering the Nicolau was only put on the context of the Nicolau no longer being in effect because it is superseded by 10h. It will be interesting to see the final briefs next week. Thankfully they will be only 15 pages each. I've read through 500 pages of this crap for the past 3 days. I'm ready for a final ruling. And I hope this merger goes through because this whole trial is a moot point if there is no merger. And then who will I talk to to get these three days of my life back!
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Old 10-26-2013, 08:51 AM
  #1590  
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I saw the email that flyby posted (he didnt not write it) and I thought depending on what side you're on the slant will be toward that end. I do notice however that while east folk add commentary, the west folk provide links to actual transcripts. That in and of itself is very telling. I have a few points to add and or make and will do that within the context of your post.

Cactusmike,
Originally Posted by cactusmike
Flyby...

I was not at the trial but I have read the two days of transcripts and I read Bradford's deposition. I am flying with one of the AOL guys. All I will say is that interpretations will vary based on perspective but in the end it is up to Judge Silver to see the testimony for what it is. The court will not concern itself with who did a better job but rather how the law applies to the case. One side can put on the worst performance of a lifetime and still prevail based on the applicable law.

I will say that Pauley was a horrible witness for USAPA. If your buddy thinks he was cool and professional then I question his observations on the rest. Pawley's answers were rambling and chaotic. He kept repeating the phrase "we are serious men doing serious work". Most in the court were laughing at him. Also, when the chair of your merger committee can't tell you where you are on the list going into a SLI with another airline then you better be nervous, no matter what side you are on. Again the court will not be concerned with how bad or good one looked but rather the testimony being honest and truthful and how the law applies to the case. Now if the court believes that a witness is being untruthful it can decide to disregard those portions it believes are untrue OR the entire testimony all together.

The upshot of the testimony by USAPA was that they have never had any intention to use the Nicolau. It was brought out that there were, in fact, two different spins put on paragraph 10h based on the audience. That was documented in notes. Also, it was brought out in testimony that Syzmanski wrote the language in 10h. For him to subsequently say that the Nic is dead and 10h was the reason is proof that he will not be able to represent the West in the SLI with the APA. This is question that really needs to be answered or rather defined. "What is the definition of final and binding arbitration"? Does and entity have the right to disregard its obligations AFTER having agreed to enter into said arbitration and a result rendered? Usapa by its own admission states that it had no intention of using the agreed upon arbitration results. In essence they have breached a contract but I will save that for later.

I do agree that the witnesses (except for Pauley) came out very prepared and well coached. They hit all their talking points. That's why cross is so important in testimony. I thought our lawyers did a better job on the cross examination. I thought they sifted through the BS and did a better job of getting at the nuggets of truth. Judge Silver, though, will be the final arbiter of who did the best. I would expect nothing less AND any lawyer worth his salt would have his clients properly prepared for court. Now this is much easier said than done however the attempt should be there. The end result as I pointed out before will not be based on who looked better in court but rather how the laws are applied to the case.

I think at the least we will get our own representation at the MB arbitration. I believe that point was brought out quite clear. I don't know how she will rule on the legitimate union purpose for dumping the Nic since even the merger chair could not produce a different combined list. The USAPA strategy is to present two usairways lists to the APA, east and west. And USAPA wants to order the lists the way they want to. USAPA believes that the status quo for PHX is all we deserve, stagnation and all movement solely through west attrition indefinitely. I just don't see that passing the smell test.

The question that needs to be asked of the court is as I pointed out earlier. What is the definition of final and binding arbitration and does an entity have the right to disregard the results after having agreed to enter into arbitration. Usapa again I am using only that which is in the transcripts attempts get out of our agreed upon contract and by doing so inflicts harm upon the west pilots.

The ripeness of the MOU triggering the Nicolau was only put on the context of the Nicolau no longer being in effect because it is superseded by 10h. It will be interesting to see the final briefs next week. Thankfully they will be only 15 pages each. I've read through 500 pages of this crap for the past 3 days. I'm ready for a final ruling. And I hope this merger goes through because this whole trial is a moot point if there is no merger. And then who will I talk to to get these three days of my life back!
I firmly believe that at the end of the day should the merger fall thru which I don't believe it will the company is going to need the answer to the arbitration definition. LCC will not be able to continue along the path its going and they know it. The two separate companies operating under one banner has run its course and is no longer viable. How long before ****ed off pilots start really disrupting the system here causing problems?

WD at AWA
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