Search

Notices

AOL update

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 09-21-2013, 06:03 PM
  #1401  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Default

Originally Posted by cactusmike
I voted for the MOU because it placed a start date on the retro pay. No MOU, No retro pay.

I also voted for the MOU because I saw it as triggering the JCBA provision in the TA. That should put the Nic in play. I know what the MOU says about the seniority lists in place. I see it as the Nicolau list is the only seniority list that has been produced by the process outlined in the TA. That list has been accepted by the company and it should be the list presented to the arbitrators in the upcoming SLI arbitration with the APA. So the Nicolau is the existing seniority list for the combined east/west operation. We have separate lists right now because we have no effective date. Once that date is set then we have a JCBA that completes the TA. That's why I and 1600 other west pilots voted for the MOU.
I think the retro pay was a valid reason, the rest not.

The problem with this is that the document you ratified amends the TA, it carries over the separate ops provisions of the TA. It says we will use the lists currently in effect until the SLI with AA.Then the TA is superseded. It cannot be talking about the Nic, because it is not in effect. That is what you voted yes for.

This is the plan I got from a west friend that is in the inner circle of AOL about why the west voted for the MOU:

-Vote yes to make the DFR ripe-doesn't matter what's in the MOU, it's a contract.
-Go to court and file a lawsuit claiming DFR. Get an injunction against USAPA to prevent them from using anything but the Nic in SLI.
-Before USAPA can appeal the APA will take over and drop the appeal.

You guys helped create the MOU. AOL told to vote for it. You did, by 97%. You immediately filed a DFR suit against USAPA because it didn't include the Nic. How can you say with a straight face that you didn't know that when you voted? If you knew that, and wanted it, you shouldn't have voted for it.

It's just like you need a car. You go to the lot and see a car that you like, but it has accessories that you don't. You buy it, then claim you shouldn't have to pay for the accessories, because you didn't want them, didn't need them and didn't know they were on the car while is clear in the contract that they are on the car.

Straight question Mike-When you voted yes for the MOU did you think the language in the actual document called for the use of the Nicolau award?
R57 relay is offline  
Old 09-22-2013, 12:28 PM
  #1402  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: B777/CA retired
Posts: 1,502
Default

Originally Posted by R57 relay
I think the retro pay was a valid reason, the rest not.

The problem with this is that the document you ratified amends the TA, it carries over the separate ops provisions of the TA. It says we will use the lists currently in effect until the SLI with AA.Then the TA is superseded. It cannot be talking about the Nic, because it is not in effect. That is what you voted yes for.

This is the plan I got from a west friend that is in the inner circle of AOL about why the west voted for the MOU:

-Vote yes to make the DFR ripe-doesn't matter what's in the MOU, it's a contract.
-Go to court and file a lawsuit claiming DFR. Get an injunction against USAPA to prevent them from using anything but the Nic in SLI.
-Before USAPA can appeal the APA will take over and drop the appeal.

You guys helped create the MOU. AOL told to vote for it. You did, by 97%. You immediately filed a DFR suit against USAPA because it didn't include the Nic. How can you say with a straight face that you didn't know that when you voted? If you knew that, and wanted it, you shouldn't have voted for it.

It's just like you need a car. You go to the lot and see a car that you like, but it has accessories that you don't. You buy it, then claim you shouldn't have to pay for the accessories, because you didn't want them, didn't need them and didn't know they were on the car while is clear in the contract that they are on the car.

Straight question Mike-When you voted yes for the MOU did you think the language in the actual document called for the use of the Nicolau award?
No, I did not think the actual language called for the use of the Nic. However, as I said above, I do believe that the MOU provided a path to the use of the Nic. We all knew that saying the Nic comes in with the MOU would cause the east to implode. But, as I said, I believe that the MOU is the joint contract we have needed to implement the Nic.

Hey, unlike some others here, I don't have all the answers. This is what I believe and I will wait to see how this plays out. If you think we were being disingenuous, that's ok by me. We have needed to be to counter what has transpired over the past seven years. Whatever it takes to end this standoff.
cactusmike is offline  
Old 09-23-2013, 09:01 AM
  #1403  
Banned
 
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Default

Add Content
Nevets is offline  
Old 09-24-2013, 02:37 AM
  #1404  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Wiskey Driver's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
Default

Originally Posted by R57 relay
I think the retro pay was a valid reason, the rest not.

The problem with this is that the document you ratified amends the TA, it carries over the separate ops provisions of the TA. It says we will use the lists currently in effect until the SLI with AA.Then the TA is superseded. It cannot be talking about the Nic, because it is not in effect. That is what you voted yes for.

This is the plan I got from a west friend that is in the inner circle of AOL about why the west voted for the MOU:

-Vote yes to make the DFR ripe-doesn't matter what's in the MOU, it's a contract.
-Go to court and file a lawsuit claiming DFR. Get an injunction against USAPA to prevent them from using anything but the Nic in SLI.
-Before USAPA can appeal the APA will take over and drop the appeal.

You guys helped create the MOU. AOL told to vote for it. You did, by 97%. You immediately filed a DFR suit against USAPA because it didn't include the Nic. How can you say with a straight face that you didn't know that when you voted? If you knew that, and wanted it, you shouldn't have voted for it.

It's just like you need a car. You go to the lot and see a car that you like, but it has accessories that you don't. You buy it, then claim you shouldn't have to pay for the accessories, because you didn't want them, didn't need them and didn't know they were on the car while is clear in the contract that they are on the car.

Straight question Mike-When you voted yes for the MOU did you think the language in the actual document called for the use of the Nicolau award?
To use the method that you so love, "the award said new contract" any contract will do. Now dont be upset relay this is what usapa teaches and when its used to school you then you get all upset.

WD at AWA
Wiskey Driver is offline  
Old 09-24-2013, 08:30 AM
  #1405  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Speaking French
Posts: 385
Default

Originally Posted by R57 relay
Straight question Mike-When you voted yes for the MOU did you think the language in the actual document called for the use of the Nicolau award?
Okay, I know I'm not Mike, but since I'm a westie I thought I'd pipe up. No, I didn't think the MOU called for using the NIC. What I saw was a way for this pilot group, both east and west, to finally start approaching something reasonably close to industry standard pay. I also saw it as a path to ending the seniority conflict, not necessarily the NIC, but not DOH either.

If the merger fails, I don't see the east accepting the NIC or the west letting go of an arbitrated award. Management will be happy to keep the company profitable by keeping this pilot group the lowest paid in the industry. It will be interesting to see what kind of internal change, if any, happens to the union, if the merger fails. Has anyone learned anything from years of beating thier heads against a brick wall? Other than it hurts

G
GQpilot is offline  
Old 09-24-2013, 12:51 PM
  #1406  
Banned
 
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: A330
Posts: 1,043
Default

Originally Posted by GQpilot
Okay, I know I'm not Mike, but since I'm a westie I thought I'd pipe up. No, I didn't think the MOU called for using the NIC. What I saw was a way for this pilot group, both east and west, to finally start approaching something reasonably close to industry standard pay. I also saw it as a path to ending the seniority conflict, not necessarily the NIC, but not DOH either.

If the merger fails, I don't see the east accepting the NIC or the west letting go of an arbitrated award. Management will be happy to keep the company profitable by keeping this pilot group the lowest paid in the industry. It will be interesting to see what kind of internal change, if any, happens to the union, if the merger fails. Has anyone learned anything from years of beating thier heads against a brick wall? Other than it hurts

G
You need to be appointed to a high ranking union position, my brother from another mother.
DCA A321 FO is offline  
Old 09-25-2013, 06:16 AM
  #1407  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Default

Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver
To use the method that you so love, "the award said new contract" any contract will do. Now dont be upset relay this is what usapa teaches and when its used to school you then you get all upset.

WD at AWA
I really don't understand most of this post.

The MOU says we won't change the seniority lists in effect. Your DFR says as much as the only question is did USAPA fail it's DFR by not including the Nic in the MOU. Nobody but the west is saying the MOU triggers the Nic and in the last hearing implementing it was all but ruled out. I'm just trying to figure out where you guys are coming from.

Turn about is fair play, right? It doesn't make me mad when you use it, it irritates me when you use it then claim some moral high ground, because it is the same thing the east did and the TA allowed it.
R57 relay is offline  
Old 09-25-2013, 06:19 AM
  #1408  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Default

Originally Posted by cactusmike
No, I did not think the actual language called for the use of the Nic. However, as I said above, I do believe that the MOU provided a path to the use of the Nic. We all knew that saying the Nic comes in with the MOU would cause the east to implode. But, as I said, I believe that the MOU is the joint contract we have needed to implement the Nic.

Hey, unlike some others here, I don't have all the answers. This is what I believe and I will wait to see how this plays out. If you think we were being disingenuous, that's ok by me. We have needed to be to counter what has transpired over the past seven years. Whatever it takes to end this standoff.
And clearly saying the MOU ruled out the Nic would have caused the west to implode, so as I said, both side were trying to game it. We'll see who has the better lawyers.

As I told WD, turn about is fair play, but that was the exact mindset of the east when they didn't accept the Nic.

Thanks for the honest answers, I certain don't have all the answers either.
R57 relay is offline  
Old 09-25-2013, 06:23 AM
  #1409  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Default

Originally Posted by GQpilot
Okay, I know I'm not Mike, but since I'm a westie I thought I'd pipe up. No, I didn't think the MOU called for using the NIC. What I saw was a way for this pilot group, both east and west, to finally start approaching something reasonably close to industry standard pay. I also saw it as a path to ending the seniority conflict, not necessarily the NIC, but not DOH either.

If the merger fails, I don't see the east accepting the NIC or the west letting go of an arbitrated award. Management will be happy to keep the company profitable by keeping this pilot group the lowest paid in the industry. It will be interesting to see what kind of internal change, if any, happens to the union, if the merger fails. Has anyone learned anything from years of beating thier heads against a brick wall? Other than it hurts

G
Thanks for piping up G. I think you view may be closest to the majority on both sides-it would break the jog jam on way or another.

If the merger fails I hope we can find a better solution, but not too optimistic. Neither side seems to be able to get past the idea that beating the other side is winning. I think the answer will come with the company finally saying they will do with section 22. They could have brokered a deal, but the profited too much from the fight.

Last edited by R57 relay; 09-25-2013 at 06:52 AM.
R57 relay is offline  
Old 09-25-2013, 11:58 AM
  #1410  
Banned
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Default Aol 9/24 update

September has been an extremely busy month for the West Pilots and our attorneys. Written discovery was issued by both our side and USAPA, resulting in the production of nearly 400,000 pages of documents. Fifteen West pilots were deposed for up to 4 hours each, with USAPA asking questions focused on opposing class certification, Leonidas finances and SLI fairness. Last week, our attorneys deposed 10 USAPA officers, BPR representatives and committee members over 4 days in Charlotte. The depositions in Charlotte were quite fruitful providing additional evidence to make our case. There is currently a protective order in place that prevents the release of certain documents and transcripts to the public.

By now, most know that the Addington III trial date was moved to October 22 to meet the needs of the court (Doc 174). There have also been a number of legal filings in recent weeks, which are discussed in detail below. Of most importance is Judge Silver’s Order on September 18, 2013, (Doc 194), which resolved the following issues pending before the Court: (1) class certification; (2) the Company’s Motion to Intervene; (3) two motions to quash subpoenas issued to Leonidas relating to USAPA’s request to obtain Leonidas’ financial records; and (4) USAPA’s Motion for Reconsideration.

Class Certification

In a prior order (Doc 122), “the Court instructed USAPA that if it planned on opposing certification in this case, it should present ‘substantially better arguments’ than what it presented in the past.” In Judge Silver’s words, Unfortunately, USAPA did not listen.(Doc 194).

As many of you are aware, USAPA has advanced the argument in this litigation that the West Pilots waived their right to pursue the Nicolau award because 98% of West Pilots voted in favor of the MOU. This was one of the arguments that USAPA advanced in opposing class certification. Again, in Judge Silver’s own words: This argument cannot be taken seriously. (Doc 194) (emphasis added). With respect to this argument, Judge Silver stated:

During the vote on the MOU, USAPA repeatedly assured all of its members that the vote would have no bearing on adoption of the Nicolau Award. In USAPA’s own words, “no East pilot should vote against the MOU because they fear that ratifying the MOU will implement the Nicolau Award, and no West Pilot should vote for the MOU because they believe the MOU will implement the Nicolau Award.” (Doc 136). In light of this and similar statements during the ratification vote, USAPA’s current position that the vote was a clear statement by the majority of the West Pilots that they are no longer interested in pursuing the Nicolau Award is very close to frivolous. (emphasis added).

In her order, Judge Silver certified the class of West Pilots and appointed Marty, Andy and Jennifer as class counsel. Judge Silver also found that notice was not required given the circumstances of this case and that our attorneys had been certified twice before.

Motion to Intervene

In its pleadings, the Company has indicated that it will only way in on two issues, the ripeness of the West Pilots’ claims against USAPA and the West Pilots’ right to participate in any McCaskill-Bond arbitration. (Doc 128) The West Pilots joined the Company’s Motion to Intervene, which of course USAPA tried to oppose. Last week, the Court once again disagreed with USAPA and granted the Company’s Motion to Intervene.

Leonidas Subpoenas

Over the past several weeks, USAPA has issued two subpoenas to Leonidas, seeking documents and testimony regarding, among other things, Leonidas’ financial records, including information regarding individual donors. Leonidas’ opposed this effort and last week the Court found that “USAPA has not been able to establish the relevance of the information sought by either subpoena.” (Doc 194). The effect of quashing these subpoenas is that Leonidas will not be required to respond to the subpoenas issued by USAPA.

Motion for Reconsideration

On September 5, 2013, USAPA filed a Motion for Reconsideration, asking Judge Silver to reconsider her prior orders regarding ripeness and to dismiss this litigation. This pleading was improper for a number of reasons, including that it was filed well past the deadline for doing so. However, under the local rules of procedure, the West Pilots could not respond to this motion until Judge Silver ordered them to do so. Judge Silver, however, apparently did not believe the Motion for Reconsideration warranted a response by the West Pilots and denied the motion. (Doc 194)

From the order that came out last week, it appears that USAPA wasted countless hours of their attorney’s time and our attorney’s time pursing legal strategies that were, as the Judge stated “very close to frivolous.” It is unfortunate that USAPA continues to pursue these strategies and attempt, yet again, to delay the resolution of this matter.

USAPA’s Ninth Circuit Filings

In addition to the above, USAPA also filed on September 13, 2013, a Petition for Writ of Mandamus with the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit Case No. 13-73215, Doc. 1 and a Motion to Stay, Doc. 3, essentially asking that the Court of Appeals direct Judge Silver to reverse her prior rulings on ripeness and stay the case until the Ninth Circuit could hear the issue.

The first filing, the Writ of Mandamus, is a request for a higher court to tell a lower court that they must, or must not, act. These types of writs are exceedingly rare in modern jurisprudence, mostly because for a writ to issue there must be a compelling reason not to wait until an appeal from a final judgment. Here, USAPA is arguing that Judge Silver erred in her determination that the case was ripe. USAPA made this argument to Judge Silver twice and she has disagreed both times. We at Leonidas don’t see how USAPA’s Writ has any hope of success, principally because the avenue for appeal after a final judgment is available to USAPA. Hence, there is no compelling need for the Ninth to issue the Writ. Similar to the Motion for Reconsideration that was summarily denied by Judge Silver, our attorneys believe that the Writ of Mandamus has no merit; however, we cannot respond to it until directed to do so by the Ninth Circuit. To date, we have received no such direction but are prepared to file a response should the Ninth Circuit direct us to do so.

The second filing was USAPA’s request that the Ninth Circuit stay the trial in the District Court. Within hours, Dr. Jacob drafted and filed a brief in opposition to USAPA’s motion with the Ninth Circuit (Dkt Entry 5). Procedurally, USAPA’s motion is fatally defective because according to the plain language of Rule 8 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure (FRCP), such a motion must first be filed at the District Court. Here, it was not. Also, Dr. Jacob succinctly identified the true motives of USAPA:

“In this latest effort to delay justice, USAPA moved for an “emergency” order to stay the District Court proceedings. USAPA did so on the eve of when its officers will have to explain their actions at depositions. If USAPA was sincere in its desire to conserve costs, it would not have delayed its motion, as it did, until after it subjected the class representatives to fifteen depositions that had little to no bearing on the merits of the claims. The timing of USAPA’s motion, therefore, is telling.”

Again, our attorneys believe that this latest stunt by USAPA is procedurally and factually improper and that it will be ignored or denied by the Ninth Circuit.

AMR Corporation’s Motion for Leave to Participate

On September 20, 2013, AMR Corporation filed a Motion for Leave to Participate as Amicus Curiae. This Motion can be found here: (Doc 196). Our attorneys do not intend to oppose the Motion.

Scheduling Order

After issuing her order taking care of several outstanding issues, Judge Silver entered the First Amended Scheduling Order agreed to by the parties. [Doc 195]. This document will govern the schedule going forward for the next several of weeks as we prepare for trial. It should be noted that if USAPA attempts to file a motion for summary judgment to further delay this matter, they are not permitted under the scheduling order to request a continuance of the trial date based on any motion. Our attorneys’ will be working hard the next few weeks to finalize our sections of the Joint Proposed Pretrial Order, due on October 9, 2013.

Where are we now?

If anything, the filings by USAPA over the past few weeks are proof to the world that USAPA’s primary strategy is still delay, in a hope to outspend the West and to prevent an adjudication of the DFR claim. This strategy is quite a bit different than the strategy sold to the East pilots back in April of 2008. Remember the confident pronouncements during the USAPA campaign that a DOH contract would be had within 90 days of USAPA’s certification? Fast forward five and a half years and look what USAPA has done to this pilot group, both East and West: cost it over $650 million in wages that it will never get back from the Company. For the sake of all US Airways pilots as we move towards the merger with American, we hope that this will be the end to this saga and that all of us can move forward with better wages.

The West never asked for this fight, but we are where we are. Now, the only thing the West can do is to continue to defend itself against a union whose sole purpose is to advance the seniority of certain East pilots at the expense of the West pilots. Your financial contributions are all that stand between your seniority rights and USAPA’s DOH. Our second trial is one month away and as anyone can surmise, we are in the most expensive part of any litigation which is trial preparation. In the last three weeks we have been forced to endure fifteen absolutely pointless depositions lasting four hours apiece. Present in each of those depositions were Marty, Andy or Jennifer. Additionally, USAPA has literally dumped tens of thousands of documents on us as a part of a discovery strategy: dump at the last minute thousands of documents in the hope that the West Pilots would not review them. To USAPA’s surprise and shock, West pilots painstakingly sifted through every one of USAPA’s documents, free of charge of course. We do this because we have to. It’s the right thing to do. If we don’t contribute with our voluntary efforts, then there is nothing to stop USAPA from stealing our seniority, and severely damaging Fair Representation for all US Airways pilots.

We have set up a special website called “ The Push For Justice” and its purpose is to meet our funding requirement for the trial and post-trial phases. We ask that each captain subscribe for $100 a month and each first officer $50 a month until our seniority rights are secured. Fellow pilots, this is it: fund now or forever hold your peace.

To all of the contributors to the West Pilot legal effort: thank you for getting us this far. Have a great week.

Sincerely, ,

Leonidas, LLC
Click here to Contribute
www.cactuspilot.com
/////////////////
cactiboss is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
gettinbumped
United
0
12-11-2012 11:29 AM
cactiboss
American
29
05-16-2012 06:24 PM
LifeNtheFstLne
United
51
11-16-2010 11:47 AM
HSLD
Hiring News
2
11-14-2006 04:32 PM
HSLD
Hiring News
1
02-08-2006 10:37 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Your Privacy Choices