AOL update
09-21-2013, 09:10 AM
#1391
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
The transition agreement would not be a factor if you had not shirked out of your agreement to binding arbitration. Everyone knows that that is the original crime.
All of this other ridiculous shenanigans stems from the fact that you couldn't make a deal, you AGREED to binding arbitration and then broke your agreement.
No honor.
All of this other ridiculous shenanigans stems from the fact that you couldn't make a deal, you AGREED to binding arbitration and then broke your agreement.
No honor.
But, you're wrong. The transition agreement came first and plowed the ground for this disaster. I've said it before, but maybe you missed it-Saying the east trying to get out of the Nicolau award caused this is like saying the Germans invaded France caused WWI. That was the flash point, but the causes were laid well before it. Same here.
The fact is that whether we didn't accept the Nicolau award through the formation of USAPA and the ATTEMPT to renegotiate section 22 of our contract, or through any other means, the TA gave us that right because of the circumstance that existed at the time. Had any number of things been different, the east couldn't have done what they did.
A couple of facts for you. The standing ruling in the courts is that we could negotiate any SLI we want, provided we have a legitimate reason for doing so. Do you know how much time the union and the company have spent on that? None. We can't get to it as all the lawsuits have given the company reason to keep us where we are. IMHO if the AA merger doesn't go through, we won't succeed in getting a DOH list in section 22. Either the courts will rule against us or the company, when they finally start negotiating will say "Okay, we can't agree to what you want, what else can we do?" Again,IMHO, that is where we should have been a long time ago.
If the AA merger goes through, then we agreed to amend the TA and it's a whole different ball game.
Now, let's see your honor since you disparage me. What drives your opinion? Who do you work for? Do you have friends,relatives or acquaintances on the west that drive you opinion? Have you read the actual transition agreement? Have you read the Nicolau opinion and award? Have you read the decisions in all the court cases? Have you read the MOU?
09-21-2013, 09:12 AM
#1392
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
The MOU is not in place until the merger is completed, therefore west pilots would not be able to participate in an east bid under the premise of a JCBA being in effect until after that date.
USAPA has argued that this falls under a system arbitration grievance. You can be sure that the first east bid after the effective date that does not include the west will be grieved, at least by me. I will be happy to test those waters. And if my grievance is not put forth by the union, like Parella did with so many west grievances, then that's more DFR fodder.
USAPA has argued that this falls under a system arbitration grievance. You can be sure that the first east bid after the effective date that does not include the west will be grieved, at least by me. I will be happy to test those waters. And if my grievance is not put forth by the union, like Parella did with so many west grievances, then that's more DFR fodder.
09-21-2013, 09:20 AM
#1393
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Relay the names I am seeing here are not names I recognize as west pilots. Now we know for sure that one is not based on his/her stating that they were an outsider and you attacked for that.
The very best statement I have ever seen was that where the person said the east committed "the original crime". Now but for that fact we would not be here in this position today. 7 years of the epic failure of the east usapa experiment and you still feel justified in you actions. Now I know you have said over and over how you do not support but in reality you do the exact opposite. Like usapa you look for excuses and use extremely weak arguments to justify your position.
The west is guilty of nothing. We came and played by the rules that were in place at the time. The east controlled much of this thing from the very start then tried very early on deceive us by using an invalid list with names of pilots retired and even deceased in an effort to gain more slots.
The outside world now knows what the east has done and many are appalled by your actions.
WD at AWA
The very best statement I have ever seen was that where the person said the east committed "the original crime". Now but for that fact we would not be here in this position today. 7 years of the epic failure of the east usapa experiment and you still feel justified in you actions. Now I know you have said over and over how you do not support but in reality you do the exact opposite. Like usapa you look for excuses and use extremely weak arguments to justify your position.
The west is guilty of nothing. We came and played by the rules that were in place at the time. The east controlled much of this thing from the very start then tried very early on deceive us by using an invalid list with names of pilots retired and even deceased in an effort to gain more slots.
The outside world now knows what the east has done and many are appalled by your actions.
WD at AWA
See the post above.
I will agree that up until the MOU the west was guilty of nothing. You played by the rules, and just wanted the award you signed up for. But you did ignore the realities of the TA. I think filing the original Addington was stupid, but I understand the argument about statue of limitations. But, with the MOU you guys are no better than the east. You are trying to trickf it. You helped write the document. Your lawyers, if they didn't actual have input in writing it, surely got to review it. You psuedo-union AOL told you guys to vote for it and you did by 97%. Only after it passed did you argue that it was illegal and you filed another lawsuit. If you want to claim integrity then you should have protested the exclusion of the Nic in the document and they if USAPA didn't change it, you should have voted against it. I'm pretty sure had you done this it would have not passed. That would have been the honorable thing to do.
09-21-2013, 10:19 AM
#1394
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 1,353
Really, you don't have pilots named ironspud and thruthemark? It's an anonymous board genius.
See the post above.
I will agree that up until the MOU the west was guilty of nothing. You played by the rules, and just wanted the award you signed up for. But you did ignore the realities of the TA. I think filing the original Addington was stupid, but I understand the argument about statue of limitations. But, with the MOU you guys are no better than the east. You are trying to trickf it. You helped write the document. Your lawyers, if they didn't actual have input in writing it, surely got to review it. You psuedo-union AOL told you guys to vote for it and you did by 97%. Only after it passed did you argue that it was illegal and you filed another lawsuit. If you want to claim integrity then you should have protested the exclusion of the Nic in the document and they if USAPA didn't change it, you should have voted against it. I'm pretty sure had you done this it would have not passed. That would have been the honorable thing to do.
See the post above.
I will agree that up until the MOU the west was guilty of nothing. You played by the rules, and just wanted the award you signed up for. But you did ignore the realities of the TA. I think filing the original Addington was stupid, but I understand the argument about statue of limitations. But, with the MOU you guys are no better than the east. You are trying to trickf it. You helped write the document. Your lawyers, if they didn't actual have input in writing it, surely got to review it. You psuedo-union AOL told you guys to vote for it and you did by 97%. Only after it passed did you argue that it was illegal and you filed another lawsuit. If you want to claim integrity then you should have protested the exclusion of the Nic in the document and they if USAPA didn't change it, you should have voted against it. I'm pretty sure had you done this it would have not passed. That would have been the honorable thing to do.
The fact of the matter at hand is you miss a great deal due to your emotion on this subject. There is no psuedo union as you claim but rather a group of people that say enough is enough and were willing to fund that at all costs.
There really isn't much you can say here but I see you are intent on hiding behind the "TA made me do it" argument. Blaming the company for not moving is classic deflection on your part. "Hey its not me its them". The anger you have about this MOU is not even close to being justified. I have said it before that you are sitting in that seat today as a result of what you in the east have stolen. The sad part of this is when the MOU does go into effect bearing merger approval will result in your and many on the east stuck on res and or poor lines for the rest of your careers. While there may not be a bump and flush there certainly is no provision for displacements and the realignments that it will cause.
So yes you and many other east pilots have taken advantage of the dishonor and made your move to the left seat but in the end again with this merger you will have bought and paid for it and the price will be QOL.
I hear and work with pilots all the time who state that they were never going to commute to PHL, DCA or CLT to upgrade but now they are and hope to take the vast majority of the seats. The rational now is that they refuse to reward the east behavior for the last 7yrs with their not coming into those bases. I am not at all surprised by this attitude as people are extremely angry with the east and usapa for damaging their careers and they want pay back. I could not imagine putting myself thru a long haul commute for an upgrade but if it were me I would too now. There is an old saying that goes "let sleeping dogs lie". The east has awaken CUJO now get ready for the bite.
WD at AWA
09-21-2013, 10:25 AM
#1395
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
See this is what I am saying, now you could have left off the "genius" comment!
The fact of the matter at hand is you miss a great deal due to your emotion on this subject. There is no psuedo union as you claim but rather a group of people that say enough is enough and were willing to fund that at all costs.
There really isn't much you can say here but I see you are intent on hiding behind the "TA made me do it" argument. Blaming the company for not moving is classic deflection on your part. "Hey its not me its them". The anger you have about this MOU is not even close to being justified. I have said it before that you are sitting in that seat today as a result of what you in the east have stolen. The sad part of this is when the MOU does go into effect bearing merger approval will result in your and many on the east stuck on res and or poor lines for the rest of your careers. While there may not be a bump and flush there certainly is no provision for displacements and the realignments that it will cause.
So yes you and many other east pilots have taken advantage of the dishonor and made your move to the left seat but in the end again with this merger you will have bought and paid for it and the price will be QOL.
I hear and work with pilots all the time who state that they were never going to commute to PHL, DCA or CLT to upgrade but now they are and hope to take the vast majority of the seats. The rational now is that they refuse to reward the east behavior for the last 7yrs with their not coming into those bases. I am not at all surprised by this attitude as people are extremely angry with the east and usapa for damaging their careers and they want pay back. I could not imagine putting myself thru a long haul commute for an upgrade but if it were me I would too now. There is an old saying that goes "let sleeping dogs lie". The east has awaken CUJO now get ready for the bite.
WD at AWA
The fact of the matter at hand is you miss a great deal due to your emotion on this subject. There is no psuedo union as you claim but rather a group of people that say enough is enough and were willing to fund that at all costs.
There really isn't much you can say here but I see you are intent on hiding behind the "TA made me do it" argument. Blaming the company for not moving is classic deflection on your part. "Hey its not me its them". The anger you have about this MOU is not even close to being justified. I have said it before that you are sitting in that seat today as a result of what you in the east have stolen. The sad part of this is when the MOU does go into effect bearing merger approval will result in your and many on the east stuck on res and or poor lines for the rest of your careers. While there may not be a bump and flush there certainly is no provision for displacements and the realignments that it will cause.
So yes you and many other east pilots have taken advantage of the dishonor and made your move to the left seat but in the end again with this merger you will have bought and paid for it and the price will be QOL.
I hear and work with pilots all the time who state that they were never going to commute to PHL, DCA or CLT to upgrade but now they are and hope to take the vast majority of the seats. The rational now is that they refuse to reward the east behavior for the last 7yrs with their not coming into those bases. I am not at all surprised by this attitude as people are extremely angry with the east and usapa for damaging their careers and they want pay back. I could not imagine putting myself thru a long haul commute for an upgrade but if it were me I would too now. There is an old saying that goes "let sleeping dogs lie". The east has awaken CUJO now get ready for the bite.
WD at AWA
So, westies weren't going to go to CLT, PHL, or DCA, but now they are so mad that they will. That's some logic right there. No, more like justifying their lies. Just like every other airline pilot group I've been around, they will go where the most money is.
Barring judicial intervention the MOU will prohibit what you see happening. Go read the thing for yourself instead of just listening to your handlers.
09-21-2013, 11:04 AM
#1396
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
09-21-2013, 11:13 AM
#1397
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
09-21-2013, 04:26 PM
#1398
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: B777/CA retired
Posts: 1,502
I voted for the MOU because it placed a start date on the retro pay. No MOU, No retro pay.
I also voted for the MOU because I saw it as triggering the JCBA provision in the TA. That should put the Nic in play. I know what the MOU says about the seniority lists in place. I see it as the Nicolau list is the only seniority list that has been produced by the process outlined in the TA. That list has been accepted by the company and it should be the list presented to the arbitrators in the upcoming SLI arbitration with the APA. So the Nicolau is the existing seniority list for the combined east/west operation. We have separate lists right now because we have no effective date. Once that date is set then we have a JCBA that completes the TA. That's why I and 1600 other west pilots voted for the MOU.
I also voted for the MOU because I saw it as triggering the JCBA provision in the TA. That should put the Nic in play. I know what the MOU says about the seniority lists in place. I see it as the Nicolau list is the only seniority list that has been produced by the process outlined in the TA. That list has been accepted by the company and it should be the list presented to the arbitrators in the upcoming SLI arbitration with the APA. So the Nicolau is the existing seniority list for the combined east/west operation. We have separate lists right now because we have no effective date. Once that date is set then we have a JCBA that completes the TA. That's why I and 1600 other west pilots voted for the MOU.
09-21-2013, 04:42 PM
#1399
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
09-21-2013, 05:28 PM
#1400
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
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