R57 relay

Are you sure you were searching AWA's 10q's and not SWA's? It's just one letter off so it would be easy to do. Here's what I found with a simple search for America West Airlines 2004( In case you forgot that was the year before the merger) 10-K:

"Developments in 2004

During 2004, extremely high jet fuel prices and excess capacity throughout the domestic air system began to negatively impact the low cost segment of the airline industry. As a result, several low cost carriers that had previously operated profitably, including AWA, experienced declining earnings. AWA reported a net loss of $85.3 million for 2004."

So you are saying that AWA's best earnings were a net loss of $85.3 million? Wow! Winning!

Try searching for the correct airline. It has some fascinating information about the powerhouse that was AWA. A little homework for ya. In 2005 which airline had more total cash, AWA or US?

Wiskey Driver

You make this too easy read and weep relay.

On September 16, 2005, the US Bankruptcy Court approved USAirways Chapter 11 Plan of Reorganization, clearing the way for the merger to be closed as soon as September 27, 2005.


The Journal characterized the merger proposal as "[offering] a huge break to US Airways and potentially [carrying] big risks for America West," which was in better fiscal shape. In the weeks leading up to the merger announcement, Phoenix-area media reported that local passengers worried about cuts in service to the city's Sky Harbor International Airport, where America West has its largest hub; such things have happened before when US Airways (or a predecessor company) merged with a regional airline. But while the new company would operate under the US Airways name, management would be led by America West Airlines managers and would be located at America West's Phoenix headquarters.
Under terms of the merger agreement, America West Holdings was merged into Barbell Acquisition Corporation, a subsidiary of US Airways Group Inc., on September 27, 2005. Through this transaction, America West Holdings became a wholly owned subsidiary of US Airways Group. For accounting purposes only, America West Holdings was treated as the acquiring company in accordance with SFAS No. 141, which enabled the newly formed company to expedite and immediately make public its stock, foregoing a lengthy registration and IPO process. Both of the merged airlines retained their names and continued operating until September 25, 2007 when America West's FAA certificate was merged into US Airways.


WD at AWA

R57 relay

WD and Cacti,

Since I doubt you will look it up for yourself and risk disturbing the cacoon of delusion you live in, let me highlight a few other things from the 2004 AWA 10-K that back up what Carl said. Kills ya to have a DL pilot not support you, doesn't it?

" Airline Competition

The airline industry and most of the markets we serve are highly competitive. We compete on the basis of pricing, scheduling (frequency and flight times), on-time performance, type of equipment, cabin configuration, amenities provided to passengers, frequent flyer programs, the automation of travel agent reservation systems, on-board products and other services. We compete with all of the major full service airlines on medium and long haul routes to, from and through our hubs and in our transcontinental markets and with a number of carriers for short haul flights at our Phoenix and Las Vegas hubs.

In addition, we compete with a growing number of low cost carriers at our Phoenix and Las Vegas hubs and across our route system. The low cost carrier sector is growing and for the 12 months ended December 31, 2004, low cost carrier capacity (as measured by available seat miles) represented 23.6% of all domestic mainline service, an increase of 1.1 points from the 12 months ended December 31, 2003, when low cost carrier marketshare accounted for 22.5% of all domestic mainline service. We compete with other low cost carriers primarily on the basis of pricing. However, we believe our full service amenities (for example, first class seating, an award winning frequent flyer program and assigned seating) provide us with a competitive advantage against other low cost carriers without such amenities.

Price competition occurs on a market-by-market basis through price discounts, changes in pricing structures, fare matching, target promotions and frequent flyer initiatives. Most airlines will quickly match price reductions in a particular market and certain airlines have in the past engaged in retaliatory activities, including steep pricing discounts in certain markets and termination of alliance agreements, in response to changes in our pricing structure. Our ability to compete on the basis of price is limited by our fixed costs and depends on our ability to maintain low operating costs. Our principal competitor, Southwest Airlines, and certain other low cost carriers have lower operating cost structures than we do. In addition, the consolidation of existing carriers, the entry of additional carriers including new low cost carriers, the creation of low fare airline divisions by several major airlines and the revision of traditional pricing structures by our competitors in many of our markets (as well as increased services by established carriers) has resulted in increased pressure on our pricing. For additional discussion of industry competition and related government regulation, see “Risk Factors Relating to America West and Industry Related Risks – The airline industry and the markets we serve are highly competitive and we may be unable to compete effectively against carriers with substantially greater resources or lower cost structures” and, generally, “Government Regulations.”"

R57 relay

Too easy? I show you that you are wrong with your own 10-K, you counter with a WSJ writer's opinion and say it's too easy?

R57 relay

A different opinion:

http://jamhoff.com/PDFs/ArbitratorDecisionAward.pdf

cactiboss

do we need to rehash who blocked negotiations on purpose? Who made sure no one would have a contract?
Nicolau opinion, u mean the man who said you were days from liquidating? Lol

Wiskey Driver

Ok so what was in their master CBA?? Was it followed? Did they try and go back on their word? Did they start another union in hopes of forcing their will?

WD at AWA

brakechatter

You guys crack me up.

Carl is spot on with what is going on here. The award essentially gave the top 500ish pilots the top spots to east pilots. Thats what they got, that's essentially all that they got. They also got 5 years to enjoy those top 500ish spots--because of legislation lobbied heavily by coalitions from airlines which never, didn't, and never will have a type A retirement plan. Big surprise there.

Fences came down almost immediately, and AWA pilots gained almost immediate access to widebodies for which they had no expectation.

Furloughs at AAA were involved with a ponzi scheme of alter ego operations. Several "furloughed pilots" never even left the property, yet get tacked on to the bottom of the list below a 4 month pilot? In a business where everything from monthly schedules to vacation bidding is derived from a number based on your date of hire? Fast forward to today and same 4 month pilot's status on either list?

Pilots "furloughed" from the east now senior to previously senior east pilots because they had the luck to be furloughed. When will you ever hear the term "lucky to have been furloughed"?

Pilots from the West not only gaining access to widebody positions, but gaining access to super seniority and the benefit of the East attrition without substantial attrition of the own for East benefit. Those 500ish top spots from the East, not to mention the rest of the East seniority list retire in droves compared to the West side.

Fair list? Please. Of course, the East was in BK and in dire straights--in the mind of the acquiring CEO.

Of course the West had a better contract (insert eye roll here)
Personally, I don't consider a permanent crappy West contract, with essentially no retirement, decent pay or work rules the equivalent of a pilot group living under its 2nd bankruptcy contract , but that's me. You have to look no further than where Delta and United are now to get a reasonable guess of where a BK contract can go in a fairly short time, post-BK. Meanwhile, the AWA pilots have never been able to achieve a decent contract, and have always been hanging on the pattern bargaining bar.

I could go on and on, but there is no real point to it. It is what it is. there are very large assumptions that a joint contract could have been achieved in miracle time had USAPA only played ball. While this may or may not be true, there is no doubt in my mind that the West would have ratified ANYTHING--including pay cuts--to gain access to the complete list, while the East would have ratified NOTHING--completely legal and ethical under ALPA merger policy--in order to prevent access to the complete list.

My evidence goes back to what Carl is saying: Of all the mergers out there and their associated arbitrations, none have been overturned--yet. Nothing has ever happened, until it happens. I submit that no group, despite the grumblings has ever voted out their collective bargaining agent due to a list merger--until this one. You simply have to look at how far this has gone, USAPA to AOL, to see how "fair" this award was. One group is hiding behind "ethics" to gain an unfair advantage; the other is using every legal means, until proven otherwise to prevent implementation. This is unprecedented, and you are going to tell me the list is fair? Riiiiggghhhttt.

Carl Spackler

You're not listening cactiboss. I'm not talking about when you were given single carrier status. That means nothing given the fact that you are still operationally separate. Where am I getting my opinion of operationally separate? Among other places, from you:

But that's really a secondary point. The primary point is your claim that you saved the east's operation. Given the hard evidence we continue to have from the moment your merger went through, it's quite clear that it is your Las Vegas and Phoenix operations that have been crushed by your inability to compete with Southwest. It's further clear that the east's PHL operation was able to successfully beat back the same competitive threat from Southwest. Now...who saved whom?

Really man, try to be objective on this. All carriers were a mess after 9/11. Both of you guys were in rough shape lilke the rest of us. I thinks it's clear that your west operation was worse off than the east's operation. Thus the concept of you deserving a windfall in seniority because you saved the east, is just fantasy.

That's incredibly wrong. Your operations in Phoenix and Las Vegas have been decimated by Southwest. That's what causes furloughs cactiboss. When you shrink operationally, you shrink in number of pilots. When you only shrink in your west operations, you should only shrink in pilots from your side. That's only fair. The Nic being implemented would have saved your side from the furloughs as they would have occured almost exclusively on the east's side...whose side has been growing.

So I'll ask again for the tenth time and have yet to receive any response: Why would you stand up a legal "army" to defend an award that wasn't a huge windfall for you?

Carl

Carl Spackler

Actually, that alone should have forced George to recuse himself from this arbitration. That kind of unsubstantiated opinion has no place in an arbitration whose premise is one of neutrality. He really tipped his hand here of being terribly prejudicial to one side, and that prejudice based on wrong information. Sad really.

Carl