Originally Posted by R57 relay

Wow. That's all I can say, wow.

I hope you are in the inner circle of AOL.

Originally Posted by cactiboss

Hmm you forget the past five years? There is plenty of precedence that usapa does not represent west interests. The west is simply following the courts rules, for some reason Siegel says we can do a 3 way, if the judge agrees then the west should represent itself. The west firmly believes the Nicolau is the only list and that the east west TA is complete with the mou.

Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver

What he said. The only exception is that the company doesn't fully believe in this 3 way and like before hope the west will bend. Me dont see that happening at least not unless some SERIOUS money hits the table to the tune of six digits per west pilot!!!

WD at AWA

Originally Posted by R57 relay

Great post! Expertly articulated, with overwhelming supporting data. Who could argue with that?

Originally Posted by cactiboss

Well, looks like usapas lawyers are Just as big a liars as their client. This is the statement of facts (full of blatant lies) filed with the court.

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/West...oposed_SOF.pdf

Now compare the west statement of facts:
http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/West...ed%20Facts.pdf

All this stuff is easily verifiable, unbeleivable.

Originally Posted by flyinawa

I have to disagree with WD on this one. Maybe this is a complete waste of time but If you are truly on the outside and are truly asking to gain insight rather than further the poop fight, then...

I understand why you would ask that question, particularly if you've been reading postings by the Eastern half of the operation. I would suggest reading the actual Nic award and draw your own conclussions. It is both eloquent and very reasonable. It is a 76 page .pdf file but in addition to the "Award", it includes a host of information that explains background, the concurring and dissenting opinions, and the 35 page seniority list.

*Nicolau Arbitration Award*

From MY perspective, the West is so adamant the Nic list be used because it is the outcome of agreed upon negotiation. It isn't as good as what the West pilot's had asked but since the West had sought a more centrist "ratio" based solution and the East had sought an extremist DOH solution, it was closer to what the the West pilots expected. EVERY West pilot on the list lost "relative" seniority as a result of Nic's placement of 517 East pilots at the top of the list, but the reasoning was....well...reasonable. My bidding power prior to the Nic was slightly better than what it was after but it was a new company with new long term benefits and I understood that. On the East the promise of every pilot, regardless of seniority within that group and furlough status, being able to immediately hold Captain in Phoenix was intoxicating. Furthermore, they were given the expectation of that being the only REASONABLE outcome. That is why they were so stunned at the decision, why they think it's so unfair, and why so many have bought into the Jihad philosophy that has resulted.

Following the release of the George Nicolau's decision, some on the East suggested a fair (*POST NEGOTIATION*) compromise would be DOH with "Conditions and Restrictions". It could be DOH plus anything you can dream of but at the end of the day, it still amounts to DOH which means through the entire process, the East has never changed their position. I'd say that amounts to extremist.

Perhaps an equally reasonable question would be if DOH isn't a windfall, then why would the East throw out ALPA in a misguided effort to remove the West's representation and attempt to force implementation of an integration that SIGNIFICANTLY benefits that exclusive pilot group? Why has the East continued to accept bankruptcy pay rates and work rules and refused to move forward with negotiated contractual improvements knowing they will be forced to honor their past agreements? Would that not count as attempting to cash a "winning lottery ticket" and wouldn't you understand the West's actions to prevent it?

Unfortunately, the company has worsened the situation by continuing operate the West with a reduced workforce while hiring on the East. Basically, that equates to furloughing only 737 pilots while hiring Airbus pilots and offering to let 737 guys come back on the bottom of the Airbus pilot's list. The reality is since so many FOs have upgraded East, that thanks to a no bump no flush policy, they have essentially achieved their goal of DOH...at least for the purpose of upgrade. They will remain junior within those ranks forever but if you've ever seen the Captain worship that goes on over there, you'd understand why so many FOs continue to wear 4 stripes. It seems to be a case of, "I was a Captain once and so everybody needs to understand I'm not just some whipping boy FO". Sadly, that's exactly what they are. I've been downgraded. I get it. But at the end of the day, you just have to put on your big boy pants and get over it.

Whether or not you agree with what I've said, I hope this answers your question in a manner you find understandable and reasonable.

East pilots: Your ball.

Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver

No need to disagree with me at all as that just about sums up that with which I was going to say.

Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver

As an outsider Carl with little to no inside details please remain out there!!

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

OK, I've read the award. It's easy to get bogged down in legal language that requires interpretation and defining. That's why people can talk past each other for seven years. In my opinion, the Nicolau award was an enormous windfall to west pilots at the expense of east pilots. It is also my opinion that a Date of Hire list is an enormous windfall to east pilots at the expense of west pilots. Both sides disagree with the "windfall" label. That's why I'm trying to take a different approach to this. So I'll ask my question again:

If the Nicolau award is NOT a windfall for west pilots, why the huge and expensive legal "army"? Is it because west pilots are utterly devoted to the preservation of the arbitration process? The honor of George Nicolau? Something else? Your opinion that west pilots are fighting this ONLY because it was the result of an agreed upon negotiations process doesn't ring true to me.

The only logical explanation for standing up a legal army of this magnitude is to preserve an enormous legal windfall. Of course, the same exact thing can be said for the legal army built by east pilots to pursue a Date of Hire list. It's disingenuous for east pilots to say anything other than they are simply trying to gain an enormous windfall at the expense of west pilots.

I know this may seem like a backwards, upside down, inside out way of approaching the definition of a windfall, but appellate level (and higher) courts will do this to you in order to understand your legal position. You'll need to have a really good answer to these types of questions.

Carl