Views on the pilot slowdown from FF customer
10-01-2012, 06:36 PM
#31
Custom User Title
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,271
Well, I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it starts with phrases like "well it just seems to me that..."
Frequent fliers are some of the worst offenders of talking about things that they 'know' is happening at their preferred airline while simultaneously making little to no effort to learn both sides of the story. And then when they are presented with the other side of the story by people who have decades of first hand employment experience with the company in question, they completely dismiss it all as rubbish, instead of trying to rationally consider the points being made.
In other words, when you show up with your mind already made and a false belief that you know the story, you're just wasting your time and that of the people responding to you.
The better thing to do is to say that you've noticed that certain performance measures are deteriorating and you are interested in learning about this from those involved to help you better reach an *informed* opinion.
Frequent fliers are some of the worst offenders of talking about things that they 'know' is happening at their preferred airline while simultaneously making little to no effort to learn both sides of the story. And then when they are presented with the other side of the story by people who have decades of first hand employment experience with the company in question, they completely dismiss it all as rubbish, instead of trying to rationally consider the points being made.
In other words, when you show up with your mind already made and a false belief that you know the story, you're just wasting your time and that of the people responding to you.
The better thing to do is to say that you've noticed that certain performance measures are deteriorating and you are interested in learning about this from those involved to help you better reach an *informed* opinion.
10-01-2012, 06:38 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 611
If that's the case, then you are GOLD on AA (25,000+ miles). And would never be charged for bags, and get to pick a preferred seat online. Again, this is actually WHY FF travelers (at 25k+ a year) like my own wife LIKES AA. So I presume you must have flown less than 25k miles...
Indeed - I fully agree with you. Let's just hope management and pilots get their sxxx together and don't torch it all.!
Indeed - I fully agree with you. Let's just hope management and pilots get their sxxx together and don't torch it all.!
Not the past calendar year. Because of the calendar year changeover, I did not make status on American. Funny how they actually just GAVE me GOLD status this past week in recognition for being a frequent flier. I think it is that they are just trying not to lose any more frequent fliers and are upping everyone's status and associated perks in an attempt to keep them.
American has not lost me as a customer. I have just taken a break from them until their current managers lose their jobs.
10-01-2012, 08:09 PM
#34
Eats shoots and leaves...
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Didactic Synthetic Aviation Experience Provider
Posts: 849
I hope, as you say you do, that AA can survive as a standalone.
My question to you is this: You've taken the trouble to sign up here and so to speak, "vent your spleen" with the pilots. Have you done the same with the AA management who are busy driving the bus off of the cliff? If not, why?
10-01-2012, 08:52 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 520
Someone needs to inform this dude what FUPM means.
Personally, i dont give a crap about the customer, i go to work to earn $ not to get u to where ur going, wherher its dsm or london. If u want to go, u have to pay. You dont work for crap, well, neither will we. If we have to demonstrate how much the airline needs to recognize the pilot group and what they can do for the operation, then so be it. Thank you for flying " insert any damn airline here"
Personally, i dont give a crap about the customer, i go to work to earn $ not to get u to where ur going, wherher its dsm or london. If u want to go, u have to pay. You dont work for crap, well, neither will we. If we have to demonstrate how much the airline needs to recognize the pilot group and what they can do for the operation, then so be it. Thank you for flying " insert any damn airline here"
10-01-2012, 09:15 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: Cub Cap
Posts: 175
As I said. Self-destruction of the airline while thinking that 'some other management team is better' is a delusional approach. But that's seems to be where the AA pilots are taking things now. And then to be 2nd class citizens at THAT airline (US Air), an airline which some customers (myself included) clearly despise, seems like a really bad approach.
Good luck everyone. Now I am REALLY signing off for today...
Good luck everyone. Now I am REALLY signing off for today...
I would not even give him the benefit of the doubt. No one could be so obtuse as to enter a discussion with professional airline pilots and claim that he has any answers, but then again, there are always a few in the gallery that will give Tiger Woods golf advice.
Nope, I don’t think he is legit. If he is only worried about his miles, there are other forums to express his view of a “personal problem,” He seems to oppose a merger, it is possible he could have a stake in that or he is here to raise the general level of anxiety. Management benefit when we ride the emotional roller coaster. The AA pilots should be proud that they are standing up for the profession. People like this don’t give a hoot about you or your family, it is all about them and their money.
In any case, he seems to amuse you guys, so knock yourselves out. Just because someone claims to be a concerned passenger should not evoke the slightest bit of empathy for him. If you are on a picket line, he is the guy that honks at you, with his finger in the air, on the way to buy his next cheap ticket.
Really, the moderators should enforce the rules.
Baron
10-01-2012, 09:23 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 799
Most people have no idea how essential pilots are to a major airlines operation. Everyday, pilots go above and beyond while on the job. Pilots do things that are not in their job description and things that they don't get paid for. The AMR pilots are done with being strung along by management. SWA and Delta pilots make more money than AMR pilots and those companies are making money. AMR losing money (BK) is NOT the employees (pilots) fault.
From talking to my buds over at AMR, it really is a scenario of the operation falling apart in addition to the pilots only doing "their" jobs. Just today we saw AMR maintenance issues with seats in the airplanes. Clearly not the pilots fault. AMR management is only making things worse by putting the spotlight on the pilots. From what I'm hearing the gate agents, flight attendants and maintenance folks all really don't give a sh!t right now.
If one were to only listen to the media, I can understand why one would blame the pilots. If one looks at the actual pilot sick rates it becomes very obvious that there is much more going on at AMR than just the pilots having issues. For anyone to blame the pilots for AMR's current situation is just naive.
From talking to my buds over at AMR, it really is a scenario of the operation falling apart in addition to the pilots only doing "their" jobs. Just today we saw AMR maintenance issues with seats in the airplanes. Clearly not the pilots fault. AMR management is only making things worse by putting the spotlight on the pilots. From what I'm hearing the gate agents, flight attendants and maintenance folks all really don't give a sh!t right now.
If one were to only listen to the media, I can understand why one would blame the pilots. If one looks at the actual pilot sick rates it becomes very obvious that there is much more going on at AMR than just the pilots having issues. For anyone to blame the pilots for AMR's current situation is just naive.
10-01-2012, 09:48 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,610
Every AA pilot with 12 years of less of seniority with the company has gotten a raise every year. Every AA pilot who has changed equipment upward, or been upgraded has gotten a raise. We can't make these arguments and expect to get sympathy from the rest of the world.
I can't think of another industry where you get a longevity raise every year, a contract raise every 3-5 years, and a promotion raise for changing equipment/upgrading every couple years.
I can't think of another industry where you get a longevity raise every year, a contract raise every 3-5 years, and a promotion raise for changing equipment/upgrading every couple years.
10-01-2012, 09:56 PM
#39
APC co-founder
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B777
Posts: 5,853
Every AA pilot with 12 years of less of seniority with the company has gotten a raise every year. Every AA pilot who has changed equipment upward, or been upgraded has gotten a raise. We can't make these arguments and expect to get sympathy from the rest of the world.
I can't think of another industry where you get a longevity raise every year, a contract raise every 3-5 years, and a promotion raise for changing equipment/upgrading every couple years.
I can't think of another industry where you get a longevity raise every year, a contract raise every 3-5 years, and a promotion raise for changing equipment/upgrading every couple years.
Every industry has promotions, and they usually involve better pay/COLA and benefits. A promotion is a promotion, how is the airline industry different?
10-01-2012, 10:21 PM
#40
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Shaking the Bush and Clearing Right
Posts: 23
AA3mFreqFl
Just another point of view on this subject, so take it for what it's worth.
I think the frustration you are seeing is 10+ years of having the conditions under which they work being continually eroded and having very little control, because unlike the majority of America, they are working under the constraints of the Railroad Labor Act. There is anger and frustrations throughout aviation today, American pilots are, for better or worse, the first pilot group to take a stand and say enough is enough,
You also say that at least the pilots can not be outsourced, you couldn't be more wrong. Look at the regional airlines that you fly on. This is the new outsourcing. The pilots at American spent years, if not decades, learning what it takes to be a safe professional that you would not think twice entrusting the lives of your family to get them home safe. The regionals of the last 10+ years have lowed the bar to the point that their requirements are, does the potential pilot have the minimum hour required to obtain a pilots certificate and is he trainable, because all they are willing to pay is fast food wages. In other words, when you or your family flies on a regional airline there is a good chance that the pilot in the right seat is learning how to be a professional pilot while flying your family. These regional aircraft are now able to fly coast to coast and taking more and more mainline flying, all because aviation has become a constant quest do it for the least capital cost, not what it it takes to maintain the standards that the American pilots are fighting for.
As for foreign outsourcing, management solved that problem years ago when it comes to the maintenance. Not that long ago heavy maintenance was done in-house by union labor that worked for that specific airline. Now the majority of heavy maintenance is outsourced to foreign companies where reading or speaking english is not required, and if it is more cost effective they will start a company here in the United States where the ability to read or speak english is also not a requirement. Once again because professionalism and quality are not conducive to doing it for the absolute lowest cost.
While the pilots could be making their argument in a more eloquent manner, the bottom line is they are fighting to maintain the professional standards that so many pilots before them have have strived for. American pilots just happen to be the first to do it in such a public manner.
Stay Strong.
Just another point of view on this subject, so take it for what it's worth.
I think the frustration you are seeing is 10+ years of having the conditions under which they work being continually eroded and having very little control, because unlike the majority of America, they are working under the constraints of the Railroad Labor Act. There is anger and frustrations throughout aviation today, American pilots are, for better or worse, the first pilot group to take a stand and say enough is enough,
You also say that at least the pilots can not be outsourced, you couldn't be more wrong. Look at the regional airlines that you fly on. This is the new outsourcing. The pilots at American spent years, if not decades, learning what it takes to be a safe professional that you would not think twice entrusting the lives of your family to get them home safe. The regionals of the last 10+ years have lowed the bar to the point that their requirements are, does the potential pilot have the minimum hour required to obtain a pilots certificate and is he trainable, because all they are willing to pay is fast food wages. In other words, when you or your family flies on a regional airline there is a good chance that the pilot in the right seat is learning how to be a professional pilot while flying your family. These regional aircraft are now able to fly coast to coast and taking more and more mainline flying, all because aviation has become a constant quest do it for the least capital cost, not what it it takes to maintain the standards that the American pilots are fighting for.
As for foreign outsourcing, management solved that problem years ago when it comes to the maintenance. Not that long ago heavy maintenance was done in-house by union labor that worked for that specific airline. Now the majority of heavy maintenance is outsourced to foreign companies where reading or speaking english is not required, and if it is more cost effective they will start a company here in the United States where the ability to read or speak english is also not a requirement. Once again because professionalism and quality are not conducive to doing it for the absolute lowest cost.
While the pilots could be making their argument in a more eloquent manner, the bottom line is they are fighting to maintain the professional standards that so many pilots before them have have strived for. American pilots just happen to be the first to do it in such a public manner.
Stay Strong.
Last edited by HSLD; 10-01-2012 at 11:24 PM.
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