Views on the pilot slowdown from FF customer
10-03-2012, 05:37 PM
#91
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Um.....what? You can't have CRM with a guy on the ground. He can't see another's body language, or smell booze on their breath? Computers fail. Systems fail. How do you take care of that from the ground? How will someone from the ground fly an airplane with a complete electrical failure? If I become incapacitated, & a system failure requires a circuit breaker reset, how will a guy reset it from the ground? What about fire handles needing to be pulled? Or what if a fire breaks out in the flight deck? Who will extinguish it? What about landing in gusty winds? Can a guy flying from the ground feel that? What about when I have to pee? Will they put a lav in the flight deck?
10-03-2012, 05:54 PM
#93
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
Um.....what? You can't have CRM with a guy on the ground. He can't see another's body language, or smell booze on their breath? Computers fail. Systems fail. How do you take care of that from the ground? How will someone from the ground fly an airplane with a complete electrical failure? If I become incapacitated, & a system failure requires a circuit breaker reset, how will a guy reset it from the ground? What about fire handles needing to be pulled? Or what if a fire breaks out in the flight deck? Who will extinguish it? What about landing in gusty winds? Can a guy flying from the ground feel that? What about when I have to pee? Will they put a lav in the flight deck?
USMCFLYR
10-03-2012, 07:05 PM
#94
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Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 55
This eerily reminds me of the Star Trek episode: "The Ultimate Computer." Kirk and a sub-skeleton crew are ordered to test out an advanced artificially intelligent control system that could potentially render them all redundant. "Star Trek" The Ultimate Computer (TV episode 1968) - IMDb
Spock's impeccable logic: "machines are more efficient than human beings: not better. " Some timeless lessons for us all in regards to pilotless airliners!!!
Spock's impeccable logic: "machines are more efficient than human beings: not better. " Some timeless lessons for us all in regards to pilotless airliners!!!
Last edited by guido15; 10-03-2012 at 07:20 PM.
10-03-2012, 07:21 PM
#95
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10-03-2012, 08:09 PM
#96
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Posts: 4,026
You realize we could sit here all day listing things that were never going to be replaced? Things that were not possible?
Some people are limiting their imagination due to the way they'd like the world to remain. Yes, I'd like to have pilots remain there as much as anyone else, and I don't see that changing in most people's lifetime. The biggest reason I'd like for this to happen is to preserve the profession of piloting. I'm being honest with myself for the reasons though. On the other hand, I think it's extremely short sighted to think that we won't naturally progress to one man, minimally manned, and then unmanned transportation systems. I listen to Captains every day that are so absolutely set in their ways and lines of thinking that it's so blatantly obvious they can't open their mind to anything outside of what they perceive. Heck, at least acknowledging the possibly of computers being able to effectively fly an aircraft is pretty close to the definition of CRM, rather than outright dismissing it. CRM isn't just two pilots being able to talk and bounce ideas off each other. That can be good use of CRM, but the idea transcends that one example. It's being able to take all information about a system, process the entirety of the information, and make the best decision for a given scenario. In some cases, people on the ground are better able to make those decisions. In some cases, people in the air are. There are well documented cases of pilots using ground resources, when a controller or dispatcher is better able to see or resolve a situation. The pilot is overloaded with just keeping the plane in the air during some of these scenarios. In most cases, no one person has all the information and some way to effectively share that or "break" a chain of mishaps could save the day. There are ways this could be better with automation. Conversely, with poor automation it could be worse.
Yes, it won't be economical for a long time, it won't be practical for a long time, they won't have all the bugs worked out for a long time, they won't have the logic and learning all mastered for the systems for a long time, but none of these are absolute barriers.
Human history is chock full of us assuming there are absolute barriers in places that we eventually are able to overcome.
Last edited by JamesNoBrakes; 10-03-2012 at 08:20 PM.
10-03-2012, 08:20 PM
#97
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10-03-2012, 08:31 PM
#98
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10-03-2012, 08:32 PM
#99
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You are saying things that can't possibly be fully imagined at this point. What if you have an interface via datalink that allows you to see, feel and do everything you would as if you were in the plane, at the times when it's required? Or what if the system has the logic to operate without that datalink, with two mobile robot-pilots that can independently think and back eachother up? The point I was making with the autos is that we just can't grasp how this will evolve. How many military pilots in the 60s would agree that we'd eventually REPLACE them in combat missions? Probably none, and while we haven't replaced 100%, we have replace some. There were people back then that would have fought this tooth and nail though, just simply not believing it would EVER be possible. Same thing with the autos. Same thing with some automated rail systems. How about an elevator, you TRUST that to not leave you stranded or malfunction and rocket to the bottom? More complex systems will take longer to master, but to think that we as humans can not find solutions to problems is extremely short sighted. We've found solutions to all sorts of problems. The soviets sent a space shuttle up that orbited and came back, and landed...like an airplane (not to mention all the stuff it did that was far more amazing). Please look that up and tell me what year that was. We did almost the same thing in kind with the NM landing, but we didn't quite have all the bugs worked out. How many pilots would believe that we'd have full IIIc landings? The list goes on and on, and the limit is only our imagination.
You realize we could sit here all day listing things that were never going to be replaced? Things that were not possible?
Some people are limiting their imagination due to the way they'd like the world to remain. Yes, I'd like to have pilots remain there as much as anyone else, and I don't see that changing in most people's lifetime. The biggest reason I'd like for this to happen is to preserve the profession of piloting. I'm being honest with myself for the reasons though. On the other hand, I think it's extremely short sighted to think that we won't naturally progress to one man, minimally manned, and then unmanned transportation systems. I listen to Captains every day that are so absolutely set in their ways and lines of thinking that it's so blatantly obvious they can't open their mind to anything outside of what they perceive. Heck, at least acknowledging the possibly of computers being able to effectively fly an aircraft is pretty close to the definition of CRM, rather than outright dismissing it. CRM isn't just two pilots being able to talk and bounce ideas off each other. That can be good use of CRM, but the idea transcends that one example. It's being able to take all information about a system, process the entirety of the information, and make the best decision for a given scenario. In some cases, people on the ground are better able to make those decisions. In some cases, people in the air are. There are well documented cases of pilots using ground resources, when a controller or dispatcher is better able to see or resolve a situation. The pilot is overloaded with just keeping the plane in the air during some of these scenarios. In most cases, no one person has all the information and some way to effectively share that or "break" a chain of mishaps could save the day. There are ways this could be better with automation. Conversely, with poor automation it could be worse.
Yes, it won't be economical for a long time, it won't be practical for a long time, they won't have all the bugs worked out for a long time, they won't have the logic and learning all mastered for the systems for a long time, but none of these are absolute barriers.
Human history is chock full of us assuming there are absolute barriers in places that we eventually are able to overcome.
You realize we could sit here all day listing things that were never going to be replaced? Things that were not possible?
Some people are limiting their imagination due to the way they'd like the world to remain. Yes, I'd like to have pilots remain there as much as anyone else, and I don't see that changing in most people's lifetime. The biggest reason I'd like for this to happen is to preserve the profession of piloting. I'm being honest with myself for the reasons though. On the other hand, I think it's extremely short sighted to think that we won't naturally progress to one man, minimally manned, and then unmanned transportation systems. I listen to Captains every day that are so absolutely set in their ways and lines of thinking that it's so blatantly obvious they can't open their mind to anything outside of what they perceive. Heck, at least acknowledging the possibly of computers being able to effectively fly an aircraft is pretty close to the definition of CRM, rather than outright dismissing it. CRM isn't just two pilots being able to talk and bounce ideas off each other. That can be good use of CRM, but the idea transcends that one example. It's being able to take all information about a system, process the entirety of the information, and make the best decision for a given scenario. In some cases, people on the ground are better able to make those decisions. In some cases, people in the air are. There are well documented cases of pilots using ground resources, when a controller or dispatcher is better able to see or resolve a situation. The pilot is overloaded with just keeping the plane in the air during some of these scenarios. In most cases, no one person has all the information and some way to effectively share that or "break" a chain of mishaps could save the day. There are ways this could be better with automation. Conversely, with poor automation it could be worse.
Yes, it won't be economical for a long time, it won't be practical for a long time, they won't have all the bugs worked out for a long time, they won't have the logic and learning all mastered for the systems for a long time, but none of these are absolute barriers.
Human history is chock full of us assuming there are absolute barriers in places that we eventually are able to overcome.
If you go back several of my posts, you'll see that I DON'T deny it will eventually happen. I said it'll be at least 30 years before you see it with airliners.
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