dogpound

At AA, Sim Pilots and ground school instructors are non line pilots. They may have never flown at an airline or even be pilots. Some are retired pilots of some kind - either military or commercial, and some are Boom operators or Loadmasters for example.

Check Airmen do the sim check rides and final training rides and give IOE. You have to be a Captain (line pilot on seniority list) to be an instructor (Check Airman) other than the Sim-Ps and ground school instructors. We have a very few instances where some furloughees have been hired as Sim Ps - very few.

This is very different than many airlines. If you are an FO of any kind you do not get the opportunity no matter what your experience is.

Senior Skipper

What's the logic behind that? Why would you hire somebody who has never flown the plane instead of hiring a current FO?

ForeverFO

AMR's culture unfortunately has been that it is a "Captain's" airline, and FO's are gear-up flunkies with no skills. IOW, you've got to be a CA to have real credibility.

This is just my impression as a 22 year FO. Another clue is the "Upgrade or out" rule which is fortunately starting to die a well-deserved death. Over the years, we'd have widebody FO's absolutely happy where they are, FORCED to upgrade to CA in a Fokker or S-80, and then end up as a junior reserve NB CA for a period of time. Often, they immediately re-bid back to their WB FO job after their lock-in expires. Two massive training cycles, ****ed-off pilots, big $$ wasted.

Another chuckle-worthy rule is the WX conditions (or airport specific) mandating "the CA must make the landing, no exceptions", and you've got a new CA with 100 hours in type being forced to take a landing from an FO with 7,000 hours and who has been to that airport hundreds of times.

aa73

^^^^^^^^ ForeverFO does not lie ^^^^^^^^^

AA has always had a "Captain" mentality since the DC-3 days. They love to claim they hire Captains but the truth is that, when you're an FO, you're just an FO.

Examples:

- All PAs are made by the Captain. That includes on taxi out, in the air, on the descent, and on taxi in. Doesn't matter whether he is PF or PM. The only PA made by the FO is approaching the gate, for folks to remain seated and for F/As to disarm doors (which, ironically, is made by the F/As at every other airline - for good reason, who wants the FO making a PA approaching the gate????)

- Only the Captain is allowed to land the airplane with RVR less than 4000 or vis less than 1/4mile.

- Only Captains are allowed to be Check Airmen.

- Only Captains are allowed to start the engines.

- Only Captains are allowed to turn on/off exterior lights, hit the sterile chime, and work the seat belt sign.

I could go on and on, but you get the point. We have FOs here with thousands of hours of experience, most of who have been Captains previously, who are essentially prevented from acting like Captains in training. And frankly, most of our FOs are so beaten down by this mentality that they only do their job and no more.

Sad situation. I will say that it has SLOWLY been changing, but we have a long way to go in catching up with most "modern 21st century" airlines.

B757200ER

Captains making PAs while taxiing...who approved THAT at FAA?

aa73

That would be AA's culture-friendly FAA POIs, who are as much ingrained in years of ancestral worship as AA is...

satpak77

One would hope with these dinosaurs retiring that the culture will change. Culture, in theory, is all about the people. Once they are gone, hopefully it will change.

B757200ER

"Ancestral worship"? When I'm taxiing the jet, the last thing I want to do is try and make a PA...especially when there is a fully capable F/O not taxiing that can easily pick up the PA and say "Flight Attendants prepare for take-off"!

captjns

In some parts of the world, the F/O flying with a captain with less than 1,000 in type as PIC is not allowed to touch the controls. Imagine being at a small base. Some F/O's don't touch the controls for 6 months at a time. Now that really sucks! 22 year F/O... holy $hit! That can't be great for one's ego. Damn... that really sucks. In many parts of the world a cadet finds their way into the left seat within 5 years after induction.

ForeverFO

It depends upon who you are flying with. The majority are fine. But those rules as described are inviolable. Ignore them, ding metal, get fired.

It HAS improved, though. When I was hired, some of those old 727 idiots were flying Captain Blighs. What's especially entertaining is that when the 727 retired, a lot of them flunked their upgrade into a glass airplane. They couldn't work even the basic FMC functions. VNAV, fuggetaboutit.

Most of those are gone. What is left is generally fine, but the rules are the rules....