Delta's involvement in American?
08-13-2012, 07:16 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
Anyone who thinks the AA network will be fragmented to other carriers is smoking some seriously good stuff.
Im guessing IAG wants to buy a chunk of AA to keep Parker in check. Not saying IAG doesnt want an AA/US merger, but I dont think they are crazy about Parker running the show.
Im guessing IAG wants to buy a chunk of AA to keep Parker in check. Not saying IAG doesnt want an AA/US merger, but I dont think they are crazy about Parker running the show.
I was supposed to go fly for them for 6 months back around '96. They screwed the Dan Air guys and were short of 737 F/Os. The details are fuzzy now, but seems US was smarting a little from the slowdown of Trans-Atlantic growth and maybe we transferred some flying to them. I know we turned some of our routes into BA and wet leased the A/C to them to fly it. Anyway, the LGW flying appeared to be a bone they threw to us. About 40 of us trained to BA standards, then the Dan Air guys that were supposed to get their jobs back got wind of it and put a stop to it. Rightly so, most of us didn't know what was going on.
I think both sides soured on the deal and Wolf got US out of it.
08-13-2012, 11:25 PM
#12
SDQ Base Chief
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 320 CA
Posts: 5,665
I don't know if you guys remember but at one time BA owned a chunk of US Air. It was a very interesting time. BA looks out for....BA(looked. I'm sure IAG looks out for IAG now)
I was supposed to go fly for them for 6 months back around '96. They screwed the Dan Air guys and were short of 737 F/Os. The details are fuzzy now, but seems US was smarting a little from the slowdown of Trans-Atlantic growth and maybe we transferred some flying to them. I know we turned some of our routes into BA and wet leased the A/C to them to fly it. Anyway, the LGW flying appeared to be a bone they threw to us. About 40 of us trained to BA standards, then the Dan Air guys that were supposed to get their jobs back got wind of it and put a stop to it. Rightly so, most of us didn't know what was going on.
I think both sides soured on the deal and Wolf got US out of it.
I was supposed to go fly for them for 6 months back around '96. They screwed the Dan Air guys and were short of 737 F/Os. The details are fuzzy now, but seems US was smarting a little from the slowdown of Trans-Atlantic growth and maybe we transferred some flying to them. I know we turned some of our routes into BA and wet leased the A/C to them to fly it. Anyway, the LGW flying appeared to be a bone they threw to us. About 40 of us trained to BA standards, then the Dan Air guys that were supposed to get their jobs back got wind of it and put a stop to it. Rightly so, most of us didn't know what was going on.
I think both sides soured on the deal and Wolf got US out of it.
08-14-2012, 04:56 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,902
Bad karma taking about breaking up AMR when there are thousands of pilots who depend on that paycheck.
While the forum ToC permits it, and you young guys think anything goes, it's pretty classless, like walking around with your shirttail hanging out.
But by all means, proceed, if it lets you sleep a night.
Nu
While the forum ToC permits it, and you young guys think anything goes, it's pretty classless, like walking around with your shirttail hanging out.
But by all means, proceed, if it lets you sleep a night.
Nu
08-14-2012, 04:57 AM
#14
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
The new Delta contract is like a fuel hedge...
It doesn't ensure the lowest price but makes the future more predictable, in particular in light of how Delta has been using collars.
To boot, hedges aren't a one time deal but a continuous process. Taking a spot check isn't an effective way of measuring the efficacy of a hedging strategy as is evident in the Q2 results...
Why wouldn't a corporation apply the same strategy to other aspects of the business, say a pilot contract?
Cheers
George
It doesn't ensure the lowest price but makes the future more predictable, in particular in light of how Delta has been using collars.
To boot, hedges aren't a one time deal but a continuous process. Taking a spot check isn't an effective way of measuring the efficacy of a hedging strategy as is evident in the Q2 results...
Why wouldn't a corporation apply the same strategy to other aspects of the business, say a pilot contract?
Cheers
George
Edit: Or is that what you were saying?
08-14-2012, 06:47 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: New to mother D
Posts: 123
I think ACL is right on this and most of his other observations regarding this topic. Everyone keeps parroting the anti trust concerns cited by "analysts" in the news media. Outsider opinions regarding anti trust issues probably won't play a major role in shaping the actions attempted by Delta or any other airline.
Regarding AMR and DAL. Delta has been acting like a company preparing to incur much more debt. Aggressively paying down debt has demonstrated the ability to service a larger amount of debt than we currently carry. Our early pilot contract demonstrates to potential lenders the predictability of expenses going forward.
The last few weeks have seen United announce an agreement in principle with their pilots, and they recently announced an expedited negotiation timeline with their machinists with a November 15 deadline for entry into mediation. There are other likely reasons for that deadline... but I find that date interesting.
During contract negotiations, there was a thread on the DALPA forum where one of the more current posters simply asked "Why?" Why was the company interested in an immediate contract? I'm not of the opinion that a scope modification was the only issue.
In a number of different communications from those connected to DALPA, reference was made to Delta's potential involvement in further consolidation going forward.
I feel like it's been pretty much spelled out that if it benefits the company, Delta is going attempt to be a player in any potential consolidation scenario. Does anyone think RA is going to sit on his hands while he allows Parker and Horton to seize the initiative and shape the battlefield going forward?
I'm not speaking to or predicting any specific result. The less interesting results here with respect to Delta are probably the most likely, but the management teams and every other airline besides American wouldn't be doing their jobs if they didn't try to take this or any other opportunity to capitalize or at a minimum, make American's emergence from bankruptcy more painful and expensive.
I'll go ahead and abandon any credibility here by admitting that I think the most prescient post on this topic I have read was by gold guy on the DALPA forums... I hope I don't misrepresent his thoughts, but he basically said that the fate of American would be decided by the corporate entity capable of incurring and servicing the largest amount of debt. A look around the industry yields a couple potential contenders.
@Nu, well said... but as long as this discussion sticks to the general discussion and speculation about the industry and stays away from reference to any party's benefit due to the losses of another, I think this should be able to be discussed. That said, I'm proud of the American pilots for their vote on the TA and am hoping for the outcome that results in the best future possible for all of them.
Regarding AMR and DAL. Delta has been acting like a company preparing to incur much more debt. Aggressively paying down debt has demonstrated the ability to service a larger amount of debt than we currently carry. Our early pilot contract demonstrates to potential lenders the predictability of expenses going forward.
The last few weeks have seen United announce an agreement in principle with their pilots, and they recently announced an expedited negotiation timeline with their machinists with a November 15 deadline for entry into mediation. There are other likely reasons for that deadline... but I find that date interesting.
During contract negotiations, there was a thread on the DALPA forum where one of the more current posters simply asked "Why?" Why was the company interested in an immediate contract? I'm not of the opinion that a scope modification was the only issue.
In a number of different communications from those connected to DALPA, reference was made to Delta's potential involvement in further consolidation going forward.
I feel like it's been pretty much spelled out that if it benefits the company, Delta is going attempt to be a player in any potential consolidation scenario. Does anyone think RA is going to sit on his hands while he allows Parker and Horton to seize the initiative and shape the battlefield going forward?
I'm not speaking to or predicting any specific result. The less interesting results here with respect to Delta are probably the most likely, but the management teams and every other airline besides American wouldn't be doing their jobs if they didn't try to take this or any other opportunity to capitalize or at a minimum, make American's emergence from bankruptcy more painful and expensive.
I'll go ahead and abandon any credibility here by admitting that I think the most prescient post on this topic I have read was by gold guy on the DALPA forums... I hope I don't misrepresent his thoughts, but he basically said that the fate of American would be decided by the corporate entity capable of incurring and servicing the largest amount of debt. A look around the industry yields a couple potential contenders.
@Nu, well said... but as long as this discussion sticks to the general discussion and speculation about the industry and stays away from reference to any party's benefit due to the losses of another, I think this should be able to be discussed. That said, I'm proud of the American pilots for their vote on the TA and am hoping for the outcome that results in the best future possible for all of them.
08-14-2012, 07:05 PM
#16
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
I think ACL is right on this and most of his other observations regarding this topic. Everyone keeps parroting the anti trust concerns cited by "analysts" in the news media. Outsider opinions regarding anti trust issues probably won't play a major role in shaping the actions attempted by Delta or any other airline.
Regarding AMR and DAL. Delta has been acting like a company preparing to incur much more debt. Aggressively paying down debt has demonstrated the ability to service a larger amount of debt than we currently carry. Our early pilot contract demonstrates to potential lenders the predictability of expenses going forward.
The last few weeks have seen United announce an agreement in principle with their pilots, and they recently announced an expedited negotiation timeline with their machinists with a November 15 deadline for entry into mediation. There are other likely reasons for that deadline... but I find that date interesting.
During contract negotiations, there was a thread on the DALPA forum where one of the more current posters simply asked "Why?" Why was the company interested in an immediate contract? I'm not of the opinion that a scope modification was the only issue.
In a number of different communications from those connected to DALPA, reference was made to Delta's potential involvement in further consolidation going forward.
I feel like it's been pretty much spelled out that if it benefits the company, Delta is going attempt to be a player in any potential consolidation scenario. Does anyone think RA is going to sit on his hands while he allows Parker and Horton to seize the initiative and shape the battlefield going forward?
I'm not speaking to or predicting any specific result. The less interesting results here with respect to Delta are probably the most likely, but the management teams and every other airline besides American wouldn't be doing their jobs if they didn't try to take this or any other opportunity to capitalize or at a minimum, make American's emergence from bankruptcy more painful and expensive.
I'll go ahead and abandon any credibility here by admitting that I think the most prescient post on this topic I have read was by gold guy on the DALPA forums... I hope I don't misrepresent his thoughts, but he basically said that the fate of American would be decided by the corporate entity capable of incurring and servicing the largest amount of debt. A look around the industry yields a couple potential contenders.
@Nu, well said... but as long as this discussion sticks to the general discussion and speculation about the industry and stays away from reference to any party's benefit due to the losses of another, I think this should be able to be discussed. That said, I'm proud of the American pilots for their vote on the TA and am hoping for the outcome that results in the best future possible for all of them.
Regarding AMR and DAL. Delta has been acting like a company preparing to incur much more debt. Aggressively paying down debt has demonstrated the ability to service a larger amount of debt than we currently carry. Our early pilot contract demonstrates to potential lenders the predictability of expenses going forward.
The last few weeks have seen United announce an agreement in principle with their pilots, and they recently announced an expedited negotiation timeline with their machinists with a November 15 deadline for entry into mediation. There are other likely reasons for that deadline... but I find that date interesting.
During contract negotiations, there was a thread on the DALPA forum where one of the more current posters simply asked "Why?" Why was the company interested in an immediate contract? I'm not of the opinion that a scope modification was the only issue.
In a number of different communications from those connected to DALPA, reference was made to Delta's potential involvement in further consolidation going forward.
I feel like it's been pretty much spelled out that if it benefits the company, Delta is going attempt to be a player in any potential consolidation scenario. Does anyone think RA is going to sit on his hands while he allows Parker and Horton to seize the initiative and shape the battlefield going forward?
I'm not speaking to or predicting any specific result. The less interesting results here with respect to Delta are probably the most likely, but the management teams and every other airline besides American wouldn't be doing their jobs if they didn't try to take this or any other opportunity to capitalize or at a minimum, make American's emergence from bankruptcy more painful and expensive.
I'll go ahead and abandon any credibility here by admitting that I think the most prescient post on this topic I have read was by gold guy on the DALPA forums... I hope I don't misrepresent his thoughts, but he basically said that the fate of American would be decided by the corporate entity capable of incurring and servicing the largest amount of debt. A look around the industry yields a couple potential contenders.
@Nu, well said... but as long as this discussion sticks to the general discussion and speculation about the industry and stays away from reference to any party's benefit due to the losses of another, I think this should be able to be discussed. That said, I'm proud of the American pilots for their vote on the TA and am hoping for the outcome that results in the best future possible for all of them.
08-14-2012, 07:19 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: C130
Posts: 303
I haven't really seen anyone post alluding to someone's demise as being some sort of benefit. Actually I've seen more theorizing in how integrations would go. Most of the folks discussing this aren't expecting windfalls but rather maybe another base to bid or a good ol' fashioned displacement for Bar
American and whoever else will be okay...there might be some tweaking though.
It's hard to ignore though as it's a soap opera for MBA types...and the ladies are Spanish feisty.
American and whoever else will be okay...there might be some tweaking though.It's hard to ignore though as it's a soap opera for MBA types...and the ladies are Spanish feisty.
08-14-2012, 07:39 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,918
Don't know about y'all but working at AA seems eerily similar to working for Pan Am in the late 80s... It is a somber mood indeed at this place.
Tomorrow, the judge will rule to abrogate the contracts... soon, we'll know if AMR intends to implement the full term sheet or not. Either way, they know full well that screwing us over too much will likely cause the wheels to come off. Our pilots are unified beyond anything I've ever seen in my 12 years here.
Delta compadres, you just might be gettin' a nice auction sale before long. I just heard AA is completely pulling out of BRU on 11/1. They can't even make money with a 757? The decimation continues...
Tomorrow, the judge will rule to abrogate the contracts... soon, we'll know if AMR intends to implement the full term sheet or not. Either way, they know full well that screwing us over too much will likely cause the wheels to come off. Our pilots are unified beyond anything I've ever seen in my 12 years here.
Delta compadres, you just might be gettin' a nice auction sale before long. I just heard AA is completely pulling out of BRU on 11/1. They can't even make money with a 757? The decimation continues...
08-15-2012, 04:08 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
You were so close.. until your last paragraph. You nailed the concept about hedges being a continuous process, but then you act as if the pilot contract is not. It ABSOLUTELY is a continuous process, and the company absolutely treats it the same.. That is what is so frustrating about some of these guys acting like their dog was shot in our latest deal. It is just a part of the process. Getting spun up about what has or has not transpired is childish because it will change again very soon. I can guarantee you that management didn't get all they wanted, but I highly doubt it if Msrs Dickson and Anderson sit around and whine about what happened like we do.
Edit: Or is that what you were saying?
Edit: Or is that what you were saying?
Cheers
George
Last edited by georgetg; 08-15-2012 at 04:11 AM. Reason: Did I get that right? ;-) (it was allways about AMR and not about RJ motors...)
08-15-2012, 07:30 AM
#20
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I know this probably doesn't mean much, but our European flying has been decimated lately too. It's not just AMR that is being screwed by the economy..
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