Ruling delayed, APA members to vote June 27
06-22-2012, 08:22 AM
#1
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Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 74
Ruling delayed, APA members to vote June 27
Bankruptcy: Ruling delayed on American labor pacts as pilots mull latest offer | LeveragedLoan.com
Ruling delayed on American labor pacts as APA board is granted request by Judge Lane
APA members to vote June 27
Bankruptcy: Ruling delayed on American labor pacts as pilots mull latest offer | LeveragedLoan.com
Ruling delayed on American labor pacts as APA board is granted request by Judge Lane
APA members to vote June 27
Bankruptcy: Ruling delayed on American labor pacts as pilots mull latest offer | LeveragedLoan.com
06-23-2012, 06:49 AM
#4
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,527
A319/737-700 pay is an attempt at another B scale.
A319/737-700 pay will be less than 75% of DL/SW's pay rates. For 6 yrs!
Two contract or 10 yrs doesn't apply to the A319/737-700 pay. It applies to the work rules for Group I aircraft.
APA members don't get to vote. APA BOD votes.
Hearing is June 29. Judge required an answer two days early last week so he probably wants to know the answer by 4 PM on the 27th.
A319/737-700 pay will be less than 75% of DL/SW's pay rates. For 6 yrs!
Two contract or 10 yrs doesn't apply to the A319/737-700 pay. It applies to the work rules for Group I aircraft.
APA members don't get to vote. APA BOD votes.
Hearing is June 29. Judge required an answer two days early last week so he probably wants to know the answer by 4 PM on the 27th.
06-23-2012, 07:03 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: 737 CA MIA
Posts: 1,042
This is a well written summary from STL chairman
posted on June 23, 2012 07:43
What happened?
This week was a roller coaster for the pilots of American Airlines. What I will attempt to do in this blast is to describe what happened.
A little background; I have been involved in a leadership or negotiating committee role for three (3) chapter 11 contract ratifications and one (1) near chapter 11 (AA 2003), since 1992.
What was presented to the APA Board for ratification was by far, the worst, most incomplete and irresponsible contract proposal I have ever seen. What was actually voted on failed more on what was intentionally unavailable, than from the content within.
On Friday, June 15th, the Company made a last and final best offer to APA in New York during mediated bargaining. The LBFO documents were over ten separate documents, some related, some not. Their form was in no way even close to contract language. Major contract areas were defined by single sentences or only a paragraph. Some versions were not accurate to the last state of bargaining or conflicted with other proposed documents.
The APA Board arrived on Monday afternoon to review the proposed agreement. What happened was many of those documents were still in various stages of negotiation. Some of the final documents were not even drafted yet and ended up not being available for board review until only minutes before the vote.
To describe the actual vote as chaotic would be an understatement. As the vote was imminent, it was realized that most of the Board did not even have complete or current versions of all the documents that we were voting on.
In the end, there were 11 total documents. The board had only reviewed 7 of them while in session prior to the vote. One document was still being negotiated as the vote was taking place.
Some examples of substantial contractual areas that lacked adequate detail were Pref Bidding and reserve rules. The Company was proposing to implement Pref Bidding with only one sentence of contractual language. Reserve Rules were only a few sentences leaving gaping questions on how it would be implemented. As written, the company would be able to require airport standby’s, no reasonably available, pretty much complete company discretion on how over 25% of our workforce is administered.
What was proposed to us was either, clearly, bad faith bargaining or gross incompetence. AA and APA have been negotiating for 6 years. It is unthinkable that the company did not have in their possession, basic or skeletal language on such important areas as reserve rules and pref bidding.
Why was the language omitted?
For the APA to approve a new 6-year collective bargaining agreement on what was proposed to us would have been an act of gross negligence.
AA has requested and received approval for a 1-week delay in the 1113(c) decision. The APA Board will reconvene next week to review what has been promised to be, more complete and robust proposals.
As soon as this next week is complete, we will be scheduling a series of domicile meetings to give you a detailed account of where are and where we are going.
posted on June 23, 2012 07:43
What happened?
This week was a roller coaster for the pilots of American Airlines. What I will attempt to do in this blast is to describe what happened.
A little background; I have been involved in a leadership or negotiating committee role for three (3) chapter 11 contract ratifications and one (1) near chapter 11 (AA 2003), since 1992.
What was presented to the APA Board for ratification was by far, the worst, most incomplete and irresponsible contract proposal I have ever seen. What was actually voted on failed more on what was intentionally unavailable, than from the content within.
On Friday, June 15th, the Company made a last and final best offer to APA in New York during mediated bargaining. The LBFO documents were over ten separate documents, some related, some not. Their form was in no way even close to contract language. Major contract areas were defined by single sentences or only a paragraph. Some versions were not accurate to the last state of bargaining or conflicted with other proposed documents.
The APA Board arrived on Monday afternoon to review the proposed agreement. What happened was many of those documents were still in various stages of negotiation. Some of the final documents were not even drafted yet and ended up not being available for board review until only minutes before the vote.
To describe the actual vote as chaotic would be an understatement. As the vote was imminent, it was realized that most of the Board did not even have complete or current versions of all the documents that we were voting on.
In the end, there were 11 total documents. The board had only reviewed 7 of them while in session prior to the vote. One document was still being negotiated as the vote was taking place.
Some examples of substantial contractual areas that lacked adequate detail were Pref Bidding and reserve rules. The Company was proposing to implement Pref Bidding with only one sentence of contractual language. Reserve Rules were only a few sentences leaving gaping questions on how it would be implemented. As written, the company would be able to require airport standby’s, no reasonably available, pretty much complete company discretion on how over 25% of our workforce is administered.
What was proposed to us was either, clearly, bad faith bargaining or gross incompetence. AA and APA have been negotiating for 6 years. It is unthinkable that the company did not have in their possession, basic or skeletal language on such important areas as reserve rules and pref bidding.
Why was the language omitted?
For the APA to approve a new 6-year collective bargaining agreement on what was proposed to us would have been an act of gross negligence.
AA has requested and received approval for a 1-week delay in the 1113(c) decision. The APA Board will reconvene next week to review what has been promised to be, more complete and robust proposals.
As soon as this next week is complete, we will be scheduling a series of domicile meetings to give you a detailed account of where are and where we are going.
06-23-2012, 10:16 AM
#6
Underpaid...
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: French-Canadian
Posts: 2,101
You are correct, the APA BOD gets to vote, but what they are voting for is not to accept the deal, all they are voting for is yes/no to send the last proposal to the membership, if they do then the 1113 process for the pilots will likely be frozen until the pilots complete the vote, if they vote in there ya go new contract, if they vote no, then the judge will rule and we will go from there. But the APA BOD will not be voting in a contract the membership will.
The judge has extended the 1113 ruling for all of AMR contracts to Friday June 29th but has asked the APA BOD to complete their voting by COB Wednesday June 27th.
The judge has extended the 1113 ruling for all of AMR contracts to Friday June 29th but has asked the APA BOD to complete their voting by COB Wednesday June 27th.
06-24-2012, 01:38 PM
#7
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
A319/737-700 pay is an attempt at another B scale.
A319/737-700 pay will be less than 75% of DL/SW's pay rates. For 6 yrs!
Two contract or 10 yrs doesn't apply to the A319/737-700 pay. It applies to the work rules for Group I aircraft.
APA members don't get to vote. APA BOD votes.
Hearing is June 29. Judge required an answer two days early last week so he probably wants to know the answer by 4 PM on the 27th.
A319/737-700 pay will be less than 75% of DL/SW's pay rates. For 6 yrs!
Two contract or 10 yrs doesn't apply to the A319/737-700 pay. It applies to the work rules for Group I aircraft.
APA members don't get to vote. APA BOD votes.
Hearing is June 29. Judge required an answer two days early last week so he probably wants to know the answer by 4 PM on the 27th.
Totally unacceptable.
06-27-2012, 02:46 PM
#9
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Yes. Getting 50%+1 of the pilots to vote for ratification will be a tall order from what I've seen so far. Considering the contraction and demontions, the overwhelming majority of pilots will be facing significant pay losses and many subject to furlough. Our claim can be butchered in the C11 process with some of it handed over to management as bonuses. Scope ?
Well, no comment.
There is so much wrong with it in so many ways, that I've stopped reading and plan to vote no. The APA is required to urge us to ratify it, but I can't force myself to sign up for this and would rather take my chances with the judge. Unless there's something I don't know, no amount of pressure will get me to agree to this thing.
Kill me if you must, but demand that I kill myself I won't do.
Well, no comment.
There is so much wrong with it in so many ways, that I've stopped reading and plan to vote no. The APA is required to urge us to ratify it, but I can't force myself to sign up for this and would rather take my chances with the judge. Unless there's something I don't know, no amount of pressure will get me to agree to this thing.
Kill me if you must, but demand that I kill myself I won't do.
06-27-2012, 03:46 PM
#10
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 29
Why
Eaglefly
Can you provide your reasons for your no vote? How does this contract lead to pay losses and furloughs?
Has a BK judge ever ruled in favor of a union, what would you lose if history prevails and the judge rules in favor of AMR?
Can you provide your reasons for your no vote? How does this contract lead to pay losses and furloughs?
Has a BK judge ever ruled in favor of a union, what would you lose if history prevails and the judge rules in favor of AMR?
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