US Airways Exec: AMR Merger/Pilot Seniority
05-25-2012, 12:33 PM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Bigg Bird!!
Posts: 599
I rest my case...
Never mind. If YOU must have the last word, go at it.
I'm of to some REAL fun!!!
Yippi!!
05-25-2012, 08:38 PM
#102
AAmerican Way for AA Pay
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: B-737 Pilot
Posts: 1,617
05-27-2012, 07:34 AM
#103
New Hire
Joined APC: May 2012
Position: 737FO
Posts: 1
New guy jumping in! Please be gentle...
First of all, if the merger happens as described by the APA/USAIR CLA, I hope, for all of our sakes that we become a part of a new juggernaut that rises to the heights that American once occupied and that AWA and USAIR aspired to. 'Nuff about that but it is sincere.
Nobody knows what the SLI will ultimately look like. Nobody. My expectation is that APA will craft a deal based on a balance between relative seniority and career expectations. DOH is only relevant within each of the three lists that exist pre-merger. With that in mind I see the following "positions" or points of argument as having the greatest merit.
1. APA will make all of the initial decisions. USAPA may be politely consulted, but there is no reason for USAPA (the organization, not its membership) to have any significant voice. APA will be assuming the complete responsibility of DFR so with sole responsibility come sole authority.The APA Green Book will be the basis of the new contract. Old contracts and agreements are OBE. One Collective Bargaining Agent. One Collective Bargaining Agreement. East and West alike will lose some of their beloved work rules, scheduling desires and other things you are just grown comfortable with in exchange for other benefits that will come from the Green Book. We AA types will be losing much as well and we know everybody will be unhappy.
2. Nic is probably moot. This element will probably be a driver in the ultimate demand for binding arbitration but I see three lists initially being integrated instead of two. The law, Mac/Bond is going to drive elements in the integration procedure that deny anyone a windfall at the expense of another. This prohibition against windfalls is what almost totally precludes DOH as ever again being a legal SLI rationale, unless and until we get a national, one contract seniority list.
3. Fences will provide each of the three groups with stability for some period of time. This promotes equitable career expectations within all three groups until enough time passes to allow some assimilation. True assimilation would take 20 years or more but the fences will likely only be for about five years so the truly old guys will all be gone and we finally see something like that "shot from a cannon" surge in each of our seniorities. By then, new routes, aircraft, bases coming and going will all so change the landscape that nobody would be able to say "I would have been a captain on that if this hadn't happened".
4. Arbitration will happen. They say the perfect deal is one where nobody is happy. My experience just forbids me to believe any SLI will be found satisfactory by everybody. I sense the east will be the least happy with American guys next and AWA guys content, but not satisfied. The arbitration will be NMB ( I believe) and wiggle proof. I have to check with my lawyer, but I think the NMB decision will also be highly litigation resistant. Whatever it is we will be stuck with it until British Airways buys us out....
There is room for tons of discussion under each of these points, but I would put my money on the final process looking a lot like this.
First of all, if the merger happens as described by the APA/USAIR CLA, I hope, for all of our sakes that we become a part of a new juggernaut that rises to the heights that American once occupied and that AWA and USAIR aspired to. 'Nuff about that but it is sincere.
Nobody knows what the SLI will ultimately look like. Nobody. My expectation is that APA will craft a deal based on a balance between relative seniority and career expectations. DOH is only relevant within each of the three lists that exist pre-merger. With that in mind I see the following "positions" or points of argument as having the greatest merit.
1. APA will make all of the initial decisions. USAPA may be politely consulted, but there is no reason for USAPA (the organization, not its membership) to have any significant voice. APA will be assuming the complete responsibility of DFR so with sole responsibility come sole authority.The APA Green Book will be the basis of the new contract. Old contracts and agreements are OBE. One Collective Bargaining Agent. One Collective Bargaining Agreement. East and West alike will lose some of their beloved work rules, scheduling desires and other things you are just grown comfortable with in exchange for other benefits that will come from the Green Book. We AA types will be losing much as well and we know everybody will be unhappy.
2. Nic is probably moot. This element will probably be a driver in the ultimate demand for binding arbitration but I see three lists initially being integrated instead of two. The law, Mac/Bond is going to drive elements in the integration procedure that deny anyone a windfall at the expense of another. This prohibition against windfalls is what almost totally precludes DOH as ever again being a legal SLI rationale, unless and until we get a national, one contract seniority list.
3. Fences will provide each of the three groups with stability for some period of time. This promotes equitable career expectations within all three groups until enough time passes to allow some assimilation. True assimilation would take 20 years or more but the fences will likely only be for about five years so the truly old guys will all be gone and we finally see something like that "shot from a cannon" surge in each of our seniorities. By then, new routes, aircraft, bases coming and going will all so change the landscape that nobody would be able to say "I would have been a captain on that if this hadn't happened".
4. Arbitration will happen. They say the perfect deal is one where nobody is happy. My experience just forbids me to believe any SLI will be found satisfactory by everybody. I sense the east will be the least happy with American guys next and AWA guys content, but not satisfied. The arbitration will be NMB ( I believe) and wiggle proof. I have to check with my lawyer, but I think the NMB decision will also be highly litigation resistant. Whatever it is we will be stuck with it until British Airways buys us out....
There is room for tons of discussion under each of these points, but I would put my money on the final process looking a lot like this.
05-27-2012, 09:28 AM
#104
AAmerican Way for AA Pay
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: B-737 Pilot
Posts: 1,617
New guy jumping in! Please be gentle.
Nobody knows what the SLI will ultimately look like. Nobody. My expectation is that APA will craft a deal based on a balance between relative seniority and career expectations. DOH is only relevant within each of the three lists that exist pre-merger.
1. APA will make all of the initial decisions. USAPA may be politely consulted, but there is no reason for USAPA (the organization, not its membership) to have any significant voice. APA will be assuming the complete responsibility of DFR so with sole responsibility come sole authority.The APA Green Book will be the basis of the new contract. Old contracts and agreements are OBE. One Collective Bargaining Agent. One Collective Bargaining Agreement. East and West alike will lose some of their beloved work rules, scheduling desires and other things you are just grown comfortable with in exchange for other benefits that will come from the Green Book. We AA types will be losing much as well and we know everybody will be unhappy.
2. Nic is probably moot. This element will probably be a driver in the ultimate demand for binding arbitration but I see three lists initially being integrated instead of two. The law, Mac/Bond is going to drive elements in the integration procedure that deny anyone a windfall at the expense of another. This prohibition against windfalls is what almost totally precludes DOH as ever again being a legal SLI rationale, unless and until we get a national, one contract seniority list.
3. Fences will provide each of the three groups with stability for some period of time. This promotes equitable career expectations within all three groups until enough time passes to allow some assimilation. True assimilation would take 20 years or more but the fences will likely only be for about five years so the truly old guys will all be gone and we finally see something like that "shot from a cannon" surge in each of our seniorities. By then, new routes, aircraft, bases coming and going will all so change the landscape that nobody would be able to say "I would have been a captain on that if this hadn't happened".
4. Arbitration will happen. They say the perfect deal is one where nobody is happy. My experience just forbids me to believe any SLI will be found satisfactory by everybody. I sense the east will be the least happy with American guys next and AWA guys content, but not satisfied. The arbitration will be NMB ( I believe) and wiggle proof. I have to check with my lawyer, but I think the NMB decision will also be highly litigation resistant. Whatever it is we will be stuck with it until British Airways buys us out....
Nobody knows what the SLI will ultimately look like. Nobody. My expectation is that APA will craft a deal based on a balance between relative seniority and career expectations. DOH is only relevant within each of the three lists that exist pre-merger.
1. APA will make all of the initial decisions. USAPA may be politely consulted, but there is no reason for USAPA (the organization, not its membership) to have any significant voice. APA will be assuming the complete responsibility of DFR so with sole responsibility come sole authority.The APA Green Book will be the basis of the new contract. Old contracts and agreements are OBE. One Collective Bargaining Agent. One Collective Bargaining Agreement. East and West alike will lose some of their beloved work rules, scheduling desires and other things you are just grown comfortable with in exchange for other benefits that will come from the Green Book. We AA types will be losing much as well and we know everybody will be unhappy.
2. Nic is probably moot. This element will probably be a driver in the ultimate demand for binding arbitration but I see three lists initially being integrated instead of two. The law, Mac/Bond is going to drive elements in the integration procedure that deny anyone a windfall at the expense of another. This prohibition against windfalls is what almost totally precludes DOH as ever again being a legal SLI rationale, unless and until we get a national, one contract seniority list.
3. Fences will provide each of the three groups with stability for some period of time. This promotes equitable career expectations within all three groups until enough time passes to allow some assimilation. True assimilation would take 20 years or more but the fences will likely only be for about five years so the truly old guys will all be gone and we finally see something like that "shot from a cannon" surge in each of our seniorities. By then, new routes, aircraft, bases coming and going will all so change the landscape that nobody would be able to say "I would have been a captain on that if this hadn't happened".
4. Arbitration will happen. They say the perfect deal is one where nobody is happy. My experience just forbids me to believe any SLI will be found satisfactory by everybody. I sense the east will be the least happy with American guys next and AWA guys content, but not satisfied. The arbitration will be NMB ( I believe) and wiggle proof. I have to check with my lawyer, but I think the NMB decision will also be highly litigation resistant. Whatever it is we will be stuck with it until British Airways buys us out....
#1. APA will make all of the initial decisions? Why is USAPA completely discounted? Because their numbers are less? Does that make US pilots any less deserving or less entitled to any fair/equitable integration? If US acquires AA, there will only be single-carrier after an election is held. APA doesn't automatically become the combined carrier's bargaining agent.
#2. Agree 100%; I have a sense Nicolau is not going to be included. I'm not against HP pilots or for US pilots, I just don't see the agreement being included going forward.
#3. Fences? Well, yeah. 'Career expectations'? You've just outed yourself as an AA pilot---noone else uses that age-old, senseless cliche---except when trying to rationalize a lopsided, inequitable and destructive seniority integration like TWA/AA. BTW, just as a footnote, what would be the career expectations of pilots at a bankrupt carrier? Better or worse than pilots at a profitable one?
#4. Arbitration? Agree, it is the only way. (I know, Nicolau was arbitrated, too; but it was never successfully or full implimented---this is in no way meant to disadvantage HP pilots going forward). Here is the irony: You mentioned Bond/McCaskill in #2 and Arbitration in #4, yet AA/APA did everything in their power to deny TWA pilots any rights to neutral, binding
3rd-party arbitration during the SLI between TWA & AA in 2001, yet AA & APA are claiming that any integration between US & AA must be arbitrated. Also, the very reason Bond/McCaskill law exists is because of what AA & their unions did to TWA's 22,500 employees! Oh, the irony.
British Airways? What---are you a proponent of cabotage???
05-27-2012, 11:51 AM
#105
On Reserve
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Posts: 18
Self RATIONALIZATION. I guess those TWA pilots were at fault for TWA's downfall and therefore should be "lucky to have jobs at AA".
Define "truly bankrupt". I guess AA's present predicament is really not "bankrupt".
What if AA is in real trouble ,and perhaps a few months out from chap 7. Will you accept a STAPLE sli?
You keep referring to digging holes!! Just because I argue your logic does not make YOU righteous.
Question: Are you a NATIVE AAr or a FLOW-THRU?
Define "truly bankrupt". I guess AA's present predicament is really not "bankrupt".
What if AA is in real trouble ,and perhaps a few months out from chap 7. Will you accept a STAPLE sli?
You keep referring to digging holes!! Just because I argue your logic does not make YOU righteous.
Question: Are you a NATIVE AAr or a FLOW-THRU?
Do you know how the TWA SLI worked? You reference something that you heard happened, but fail to do the research. If the number of post you have on this forum is any indication to the amount of time you have, I suggest you do the research.
05-27-2012, 11:57 AM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 155
New guy jumping in! Please be gentle...
First of all, if the merger happens as described by the APA/USAIR CLA, I hope, for all of our sakes that we become a part of a new juggernaut that rises to the heights that American once occupied and that AWA and USAIR aspired to. 'Nuff about that but it is sincere.
Nobody knows what the SLI will ultimately look like. Nobody. My expectation is that APA will craft a deal based on a balance between relative seniority and career expectations. DOH is only relevant within each of the three lists that exist pre-merger. With that in mind I see the following "positions" or points of argument as having the greatest merit.
1. APA will make all of the initial decisions. USAPA may be politely consulted, but there is no reason for USAPA (the organization, not its membership) to have any significant voice. APA will be assuming the complete responsibility of DFR so with sole responsibility come sole authority.The APA Green Book will be the basis of the new contract. Old contracts and agreements are OBE. One Collective Bargaining Agent. One Collective Bargaining Agreement. East and West alike will lose some of their beloved work rules, scheduling desires and other things you are just grown comfortable with in exchange for other benefits that will come from the Green Book. We AA types will be losing much as well and we know everybody will be unhappy.
2. Nic is probably moot. This element will probably be a driver in the ultimate demand for binding arbitration but I see three lists initially being integrated instead of two. The law, Mac/Bond is going to drive elements in the integration procedure that deny anyone a windfall at the expense of another. This prohibition against windfalls is what almost totally precludes DOH as ever again being a legal SLI rationale, unless and until we get a national, one contract seniority list.
3. Fences will provide each of the three groups with stability for some period of time. This promotes equitable career expectations within all three groups until enough time passes to allow some assimilation. True assimilation would take 20 years or more but the fences will likely only be for about five years so the truly old guys will all be gone and we finally see something like that "shot from a cannon" surge in each of our seniorities. By then, new routes, aircraft, bases coming and going will all so change the landscape that nobody would be able to say "I would have been a captain on that if this hadn't happened".
4. Arbitration will happen. They say the perfect deal is one where nobody is happy. My experience just forbids me to believe any SLI will be found satisfactory by everybody. I sense the east will be the least happy with American guys next and AWA guys content, but not satisfied. The arbitration will be NMB ( I believe) and wiggle proof. I have to check with my lawyer, but I think the NMB decision will also be highly litigation resistant. Whatever it is we will be stuck with it until British Airways buys us out....
There is room for tons of discussion under each of these points, but I would put my money on the final process looking a lot like this.
First of all, if the merger happens as described by the APA/USAIR CLA, I hope, for all of our sakes that we become a part of a new juggernaut that rises to the heights that American once occupied and that AWA and USAIR aspired to. 'Nuff about that but it is sincere.
Nobody knows what the SLI will ultimately look like. Nobody. My expectation is that APA will craft a deal based on a balance between relative seniority and career expectations. DOH is only relevant within each of the three lists that exist pre-merger. With that in mind I see the following "positions" or points of argument as having the greatest merit.
1. APA will make all of the initial decisions. USAPA may be politely consulted, but there is no reason for USAPA (the organization, not its membership) to have any significant voice. APA will be assuming the complete responsibility of DFR so with sole responsibility come sole authority.The APA Green Book will be the basis of the new contract. Old contracts and agreements are OBE. One Collective Bargaining Agent. One Collective Bargaining Agreement. East and West alike will lose some of their beloved work rules, scheduling desires and other things you are just grown comfortable with in exchange for other benefits that will come from the Green Book. We AA types will be losing much as well and we know everybody will be unhappy.
2. Nic is probably moot. This element will probably be a driver in the ultimate demand for binding arbitration but I see three lists initially being integrated instead of two. The law, Mac/Bond is going to drive elements in the integration procedure that deny anyone a windfall at the expense of another. This prohibition against windfalls is what almost totally precludes DOH as ever again being a legal SLI rationale, unless and until we get a national, one contract seniority list.
3. Fences will provide each of the three groups with stability for some period of time. This promotes equitable career expectations within all three groups until enough time passes to allow some assimilation. True assimilation would take 20 years or more but the fences will likely only be for about five years so the truly old guys will all be gone and we finally see something like that "shot from a cannon" surge in each of our seniorities. By then, new routes, aircraft, bases coming and going will all so change the landscape that nobody would be able to say "I would have been a captain on that if this hadn't happened".
4. Arbitration will happen. They say the perfect deal is one where nobody is happy. My experience just forbids me to believe any SLI will be found satisfactory by everybody. I sense the east will be the least happy with American guys next and AWA guys content, but not satisfied. The arbitration will be NMB ( I believe) and wiggle proof. I have to check with my lawyer, but I think the NMB decision will also be highly litigation resistant. Whatever it is we will be stuck with it until British Airways buys us out....
There is room for tons of discussion under each of these points, but I would put my money on the final process looking a lot like this.
I realize you are a American Airlines fella by the way you are spelling out the way it is going to be for the rest. But now you are just another pilot of another bankrupt airline. I hope you are treated better than the way you treated the TWA folks. You know you are bankrupt and are under the direction of a judge don't you? You are at the mercy of others at this time.
05-27-2012, 12:31 PM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Bigg Bird!!
Posts: 599
MY best man was a senior 76 driver F/O JFK. Could of held MD cappy but opted for the seniority in seat and the international flying. He WAS STAPLED!! served 4 years on furlough, and is now a junior MIA based pilot. YES I'm aware of how the AA/TWA deal evolved. Ask ALPO Nat how they fared as a result of their machinations.
05-27-2012, 12:53 PM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Bigg Bird!!
Posts: 599
[QUOTE=thebmer;1198621 Whatever it is we will be stuck with it until British Airways buys us out....
There is room for tons of discussion under each of these points, but I would put my money on the final process looking a lot like this.[/QUOTE]
My thoughts are the same. I believe the industry is bracketing for the future. 3 MEGA global alliances composed of US, European, Asian, and ME carriers. There are boots on the ground in Washington as we speak, attempting to modify the foreign ownership rules. I see big changes within 5 years. I view this potential AA/US merger as a strategic step for the OneWorld Alliance.
There is room for tons of discussion under each of these points, but I would put my money on the final process looking a lot like this.[/QUOTE]
My thoughts are the same. I believe the industry is bracketing for the future. 3 MEGA global alliances composed of US, European, Asian, and ME carriers. There are boots on the ground in Washington as we speak, attempting to modify the foreign ownership rules. I see big changes within 5 years. I view this potential AA/US merger as a strategic step for the OneWorld Alliance.
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