Sign the alpa card - end apa dysfunction
06-18-2024, 07:47 AM
#71
You scratched my anchor
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,946
If they had 8500 cards the process would have started. Instead it's "we're almost there. Send more cards." We have no idea if it's at 2,000 or 7,000 cards. Where's the openness and transparency about the card drive totals? If the membership was truly overwhelmingly in support of ALPA, as the pro-ALPA supporters say, why hasn't the trigger amount already been reached?
06-18-2024, 07:55 AM
#72
You scratched my anchor
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,946
Really? Because I remember being a pilot for an AA wholly owned, negotiating with Doug Parker when all three of AA's wholly owned regional carriers were all represented by ALPA and I don't recall ALPA doing anything other than looking out for ALPA National's owned self interest. If AA pilots ever do vote in ALPA, when that honey moon period is over, reality is going to hit them hard. There is a reason AA pilots left ALPA and formed their own union. AA pilots for ALPA are chasing a fantasy.
06-18-2024, 08:12 AM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2023
Posts: 502
It's an admittedly limited data point, but I did not have this experience at my new hire dinner in May.
After the sales pitch of all the APA had to offer, the topic of the ALPA card drive came up during the Q&A, and the union reps took about 20 minutes to explain the issues at hand. I felt that the discussion was professional and informative.
Of course, I'm fully aware that there are always three sides to every story [His, Hers, and the Truth]. I knew I was getting the APA version of the story ... but I didn't walk out feeling like the strength of their argument relied on smear tactics or anything.
A question arose earlier in this thread that I was eager to see a discussion on. The thread wandered into different territory however, and the point was not addressed.
Namely ... let's say for the sake of argument, that a majority of union members feel that their union officers are no good (for any fill-in-the-blank reason) ... then why is it not an option to vote out the unruly / out-of-touch reps and replace them with officers that are more in line with the majority?
Heading straight to dropping one union for another seems a little ... I dunno ... scorched earth to me.
I'm not trying to pick a fight or pour fuel on the fire, but I haven't really wrapped my head around why a card drive is the obvious and only plan of action here.
Was hoping someone could explain why the card drive was the tool in the toolbox we reached for when it seems that other, less drastic, tools exist that would address members' concerns.
After the sales pitch of all the APA had to offer, the topic of the ALPA card drive came up during the Q&A, and the union reps took about 20 minutes to explain the issues at hand. I felt that the discussion was professional and informative.
Of course, I'm fully aware that there are always three sides to every story [His, Hers, and the Truth]. I knew I was getting the APA version of the story ... but I didn't walk out feeling like the strength of their argument relied on smear tactics or anything.
A question arose earlier in this thread that I was eager to see a discussion on. The thread wandered into different territory however, and the point was not addressed.
Namely ... let's say for the sake of argument, that a majority of union members feel that their union officers are no good (for any fill-in-the-blank reason) ... then why is it not an option to vote out the unruly / out-of-touch reps and replace them with officers that are more in line with the majority?
Heading straight to dropping one union for another seems a little ... I dunno ... scorched earth to me.
I'm not trying to pick a fight or pour fuel on the fire, but I haven't really wrapped my head around why a card drive is the obvious and only plan of action here.
Was hoping someone could explain why the card drive was the tool in the toolbox we reached for when it seems that other, less drastic, tools exist that would address members' concerns.
Our union has had numerous opportunities to function like an entity that operates with the best interest of AA pilots in mind. They created a committee that explored the possibility of learning more about what an ALPA merger would look like, listened to that committee unanimously recommend doing so, and then shut said committee down with no action whatsoever. This came up again in a recent meeting and they had the gall to say it was frivolous and outside the union bylaws (or something along those lines, I didn't go back and listen to the sound byte again).
Our current union doesn't have the resources (and doesn't like to use the financial resources at its disposal), to negotiate at the level Delta, United and Alaska do. Instead of having extensive data collected from multiple separate negotiations to base our own negotiations upon, we have people running around killing negotiations and giving up all of our leverage because they can't stay professional and keep their emotions in check. Even if our ALPA chapter had the exact same people, the accountability ALPA National would provide would be huge.
The card drive is simply to give AA pilots the opportunity to hear both sides of the story. We only have one side, and we can hear the other with the collection of enough cards. The exact total of the cards colleceted was recently sent out (8200+), so not sure why there is so much confusion on this from some. They said they want a healthy margin as a show of strength, as well as to replace cards that have expired or are from pilots who have since retired.
06-18-2024, 11:21 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,947
APA’s own ALPA merger exploratory committee unanimously supported proceeding with merger negotiations and the BOD killed the process.
claiming not enough interest and a waste of money….
this is why the card drive is happening.
claiming not enough interest and a waste of money….
this is why the card drive is happening.
06-18-2024, 05:52 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 134
AA Pilots left ALPA because ALPA was prioritizing ALPA National's self interest over the interests of AA pilots and that is as true today as it was when back then. AA pilots will have the same problems with ALPA MEC/LEC Reps as they have with APA Reps but with an additional layer of ALPA National Fat Cats looking out for their own self interest at our expense.
06-18-2024, 06:58 PM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,918
AA Pilots left ALPA because ALPA was prioritizing ALPA National's self interest over the interests of AA pilots and that is as true today as it was when back then. AA pilots will have the same problems with ALPA MEC/LEC Reps as they have with APA Reps but with an additional layer of ALPA National Fat Cats looking out for their own self interest at our expense.
Are APA pilots basking in their far inferior contract while touting how great it is that their union only represents AA pilots and as such are in a much better position?
Asking for a friend.
06-18-2024, 07:23 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,311
AA Pilots left ALPA because ALPA was prioritizing ALPA National's self interest over the interests of AA pilots and that is as true today as it was when back then. AA pilots will have the same problems with ALPA MEC/LEC Reps as they have with APA Reps but with an additional layer of ALPA National Fat Cats looking out for their own self interest at our expense.
06-18-2024, 08:03 PM
#78
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2023
Posts: 35
I was at an alpa carrier before coming to AA. Seems like apa is better at some things alpa is better at others.
From where I sit they do prettymuch the same thing and I certainly don't see anything that justifies the extra 0.8% of earnings (1% vs 1.8%). Perspnally that difference is worth over 100k in career earnings. Unions are unions they all have their ups and downs just stick with the ones with the lowest fees.
From where I sit they do prettymuch the same thing and I certainly don't see anything that justifies the extra 0.8% of earnings (1% vs 1.8%). Perspnally that difference is worth over 100k in career earnings. Unions are unions they all have their ups and downs just stick with the ones with the lowest fees.
06-18-2024, 09:15 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 432
Why do Delta and United have 18 hour call outs on reserve in the new contracts while AA still only gets 12 (don’t give me “we have 14” because we only have 14 during DOTC which basically means nothing.) DL and UAL also get an hour of pay if they go unused if they have been escalated to short call ( which can only happen a handful of days a month.) Again APA doesn’t care because they aren’t the ones sitting reserve.
06-19-2024, 02:25 AM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2022
Posts: 130
correct. APA is good at protecting themselves, and prioritizing contract items that only benefit the most senior. ALPA is good at actually serving its pilots and winning the best possible contract for everyone.
Why do Delta and United have 18 hour call outs on reserve in the new contracts while AA still only gets 12 (don’t give me “we have 14” because we only have 14 during DOTC which basically means nothing.) DL and UAL also get an hour of pay if they go unused if they have been escalated to short call ( which can only happen a handful of days a month.) Again APA doesn’t care because they aren’t the ones sitting reserve.
Why do Delta and United have 18 hour call outs on reserve in the new contracts while AA still only gets 12 (don’t give me “we have 14” because we only have 14 during DOTC which basically means nothing.) DL and UAL also get an hour of pay if they go unused if they have been escalated to short call ( which can only happen a handful of days a month.) Again APA doesn’t care because they aren’t the ones sitting reserve.
2. We also get 1 hr of pay if you go unused after a conversion. And another hour of pay if it happened on your last day. And it all stacks. So it's 1.5 hours paid after every involuntary conversion to SC if you go unused and 2.5 hours paid if unused if it was your last day. And can only be converted 5 times a month involuntarily.
You can have your own thoughts on that, but simply providing the info.
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