Sign the alpa card - end apa dysfunction

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06-22-2024, 08:37 AM

#141

StoneQOLdCrazy

Bent over by buybacks

Joined APC: Feb 2017

Posts: 829

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sliceback

Anderson threw money at the DL/NW merger in 2009. That was a bit unexpected by the analysts - "he's normally been tight fisted but I think he's valuing the momentum and figured money would be the worth keeping the momentum."

If that's the price of having CEO's who are "thin-skinned egomaniac's" the pilots across the world will be asking Santa for more of them every Christmas. Delta's pilots have been running to the bank for years.

you say so, boss. is it true you are retired?

06-22-2024, 09:50 AM

#142

FXLAX

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Nov 2017

Posts: 2,141

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easyflier301

I believe that in 2027, Delta will set the bar again, and AA will be forced to match it or come very close no matter who is sitting across the table from them.

Again, that is for a set of facts you are assuming. What Im saying is that for any given set of facts, even the one you are predicting, is it better to have ALPA's resources or APA's to try to negotiate an industry leading contract?

06-22-2024, 09:54 AM

#143

FXLAX

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Joined APC: Nov 2017

Posts: 2,141

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sliceback

That's a one deal right now. Did they change the dues to 1.55%? No, just giving up the current surplus. APA dues is roughly 1.3% (assuming in contract talks 60% of the time).

Here's the thing that I don't buy about the vaunted ALPA national leadership and guidance - they had United lead off the contract cycle. When's the last time UA had a great contract and led the pack? Maybe back in the late 1970's? If ever? Delta's MEC, a lot to do with Anderson and Bastion, have been knocking it out of the park with contracts. The UAW would always have the strongest automaker, usually GM, lead the contract talks and the others would have to fall in line. ALPA? They decided to let UA lead the pack. Who thought that was a good idea? There was nothing going on that gave UA ALPA the greatest leverage.

Until DL ALPA underperforms the pilots should hope that DL leads the next cycle. Guess who's contract expires first among the Big 3? Delta. That should allow UA to ride DL's coat tails.....again, just like AA/APA.

Yes, its a one time deal. But it has set a precedent. And each MEC has the authority to refund dues as well. I think the Alaska MEC did it a few years ago. ALPA has also permanently reduced its rate twice in the recent past when total membership has gone up as other pilot groups join. Thats why Im saying that the chances are good that that would happen again, especially if it has another 17,000 pilots.

As for negotiating cycles, its mostly timing of when each contract becomes amendable and how quickly that particular managment wants a deal. UALALPA is not going to wait on DALALPA just becuase they are guessing that DALAPA can get a better deal. UALPA also wouldnt know how long it will take DALPA to get a deal. Ideally, each succussive contract helps the next.

06-22-2024, 10:32 AM

#144

jerryleber

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Joined APC: Jul 2022

Position: 787 FO

Posts: 697

Quote:

Originally Posted by FXLAX

As for negotiating cycles, its mostly timing of when each contract becomes amendable and how quickly that particular managment wants a deal.

Airline managements (4A) coordinate their strategies. It is no coincidenc that Delta went first in 2015 because they had never previously voted no and United led in the last round because they knew they had the UALPA MC in their back pocket. Management has far more control of progress in contract negotiations especially in a rising tide for pilot compensation.

06-22-2024, 04:04 PM

#145

CRJCapitan

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Joined APC: May 2023

Posts: 518

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easyflier301

I believe that in 2027, Delta will set the bar again, and AA will be forced to match it or come very close no matter who is sitting across the table from them.

A) I don't think any pilot group will have enough leverage in 2027 to get a deal done that quickly.

B) There is no reason to believe we will have enough leverage to guarantee anything next time around. This cycle was unique because everyone was hiring 2000/year and everyone had to be equal to be competitive and also not ensure mutually assured destruction. What's going to guarantee uniformity next time around?

06-22-2024, 04:22 PM

#146

BitterAAhole

Gate PAers are Scum

Joined APC: May 2024

Posts: 118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easyflier301

I believe that in 2027, Delta will set the bar again, and AA will be forced to match it or come very close no matter who is sitting across the table from them.

sounds good to me.

06-22-2024, 05:52 PM

#147

170Till5

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Joined APC: Feb 2022

Posts: 700

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRJCapitan

those contract negotiations were started in 2019. It wasn’t quick.

06-22-2024, 07:32 PM

#148

FangsF15

Moderator

Joined APC: Sep 2011

Posts: 4,978

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulesWinfield

Ask a Delta pilot how they like that 18 hour call out. Hint: they get a ton of SC conversions.

DL guy here. Just for data points. I track my schedule, and 2-3 SC's on average is about right. It has ticked up very slightly in this new contract (mostly due to the new 2-day out trip coverage - which also means most LC trip assignments are assigned 48+ hours in advance - awesome for commuters). But, an another important point is this: we have better manning now than we did for the past 5 years, so there are a lot more pilots going unused on LC, and therefore available for SC in the first place. We also have some SC protection, in that you can't get your 3rd SC until every other pilot in your day has had 2 (a little oversimplified).

I bid reserve by choice, and have under 3 contracts. DL's reserve is outstanding if you know how to work it. I average over 10 hours of pay per day worked. Living in base obviously helps, but I've commuted to reserve (by choice) on both NB and WB, FO and Captain. Also, with unused SC paying 1:00 above guarantee, lots of local pilots bid SC for the extra pay, leaving commuters at home. Also, many volunteer for SC and try to get to 6 so they can start getting 2:00 per SC whether used or not. Can be 10 hours of extra SC pay in some months.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Point85ToTheFix

I was at an alpa carrier before coming to AA. Seems like apa is better at some things alpa is better at others.

From where I sit they do pretty much the same thing and I certainly don't see anything that justifies the extra 0.8% of earnings (1% vs 1.8%). Personally that difference is worth over 100k in career earnings. Unions are unions they all have their ups and downs just stick with the ones with the lowest fees.

Doesn't AA up their dues to 1.3% during contract negotiations? Granted, this last contract was an outlier in how long it took, but still, you've got to take that into consideration. But, even assuming you always paid .8% less at APA, 100k in additional dues would be the equivalent of making $500k for 25 years. If you have a 40 year career, you'd have to average $312.5k for all 40 years for that to be true, and that ignores contact talks 1.3% dues. 🤨

That said, if APA and ALPA merged, I would FULLY expect y'all to absoultly demand a dues reduction as part of the deal. With another 17,000 dues paying members, contributing legacy carrier rates, I see no reason ALPA shouldn't reduce their dues by at LEAST .3-.5% with AA pilots re-joining. ALPA National is about to refund ~16% of our 2023 dues, meaning APLA members paid an effective rate of ~1.5% last year. With AA pilots in ALPA, that should be an easy sell, IMO.

Good luck, hope y'all get to at least vote for yourselves what you want for yourselves.

Last edited by FangsF15; 06-22-2024 at 07:46 PM.