NuGuy

This is variable depending on who you ask.

The other story is it was all about the crew complement issue (one that is lost to the mists of time, but involved flight engineers). The story goes that AA didn't want pilots as FEs, and at the time AA used professional flight engineers represented by FEIA. ALPA's "crew compliment policy" said that everyone in the cockpit should be a pilot. The story continues that AA offered up a sweetheart deal to the AA pilots if they went against the policy, and the rumor was if they cut ALPA loose, they'd sweeten the pot because CR Smith hated ALPA for all kinds of reasons, but mostly because they'd been fairly successful in the early years to get the government to see things the Associations way, but most recently (at the time) was ALPA's success in getting the governement to require an FE on the DC-6 and all pilot crews on the new turbojets.

This obviously generated a struggle that revisited all past slights by National and other airline groups, real or imagined, such as AA pilots were contiually shut out of the National Presidency. The other side of that story, of course, is to win an election, you have send a candidate that people can get along with and can do the job. Recall that this was a different time. You had 6-8 "trunk" carriers that were all similar sized, plus several more that were nearly so, so the dynamic in 1964 was far different that is today.

What's the truth? Probably somewhere in the middle. We've all seen cycles of union leadership that is a lot of thrust, but no vector. We've also seen cycles where the personalities are toxic and they simply can't work with anyone but their close orbit of people, but on the other hand folks can hold a lot of grudges and preconceptions. Add a dash of managament stiring the pot to their own ends. Lets not forget, the quickest form of communication back in the day was the mimiograph machine, so there wasn't much in the way of rumor control. It was no doubt very easy to spin people up with a word of mouth campain, and not a lot of ability to counter it.

People can hold grudges and stories about "what went down" can persist for a long, long, long time, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's accurate, or even close. Those stories are handed down from Captain to FO, who in turn hands them down when they upgrade. I mean, it's been like 60+ years of the telephone game. I saw it at NWA, and later at DAL.

I suppose if you want to read about it, you can look through "Flying the Line, Vol 1", which is available for free on the internet. It's chapers 21 & 22, but you need to roll in with the understanding that this was no doubt written from one point of view.

Sliceback

Even with it being written with a pro ALPA POV the history is full of internal infighting and backstabbing accusations within airlines and between airline MEC power blocks. Of course that wouldn't happen today....that's only occurs at APA. :-/

Sliceback

It's a rare event for an AA LC guy to get converted to SC. I'm scratching my head trying to think if it ever happened to me when I was bidding LC. I'm guessing it did once or twice but have no recollection of it happening.

Not having a dedicted SC/LC choice is a grind for commuters. Nor does it allow the local guys to use the SC option. Guys have strong preferences for SC vs LC at AA. That's not an option at DL.

This isn't 'carrying APA's water.' Guys can look at the facts themselves (APA 2024 Contract Comparison) and decide for themselves if AA's contract is 'vastly inferior' vs DL (UA's? all ALPA contracts????) 'vastly superior.'

Sheriff Bart

There is a spicy (current) thread in the Delta subforum that is worth a read if you are curious like me about how life would improve under ALPA. Its worth the 10 minutes to gain some perspective.

Sliceback

Please go by it piece by piece and correct it then. Saying "not accurate" but not providing the correct information isn't doing anyone any good and hasn't disproved what I saw. AA guys can look at the comparison themselves and see if "almost none of this is accurate." I tried, I'll accept valid corrections.

Sliceback

If you're a commuter a conversion to SC sucks.

What percentage commute? 30%? 40%? 50%? At AA being able to only hold SC can be a deal breaker for commuters. Being able to hold LC reserve opens up opportunities for commuters.

Sliceback

That's a one deal right now. Did they change the dues to 1.55%? No, just giving up the current surplus. APA dues is roughly 1.3% (assuming in contract talks 60% of the time).

Here's the thing that I don't buy about the vaunted ALPA national leadership and guidance - they had United lead off the contract cycle. When's the last time UA had a great contract and led the pack? Maybe back in the late 1970's? If ever? Delta's MEC, a lot to do with Anderson and Bastion, have been knocking it out of the park with contracts. The UAW would always have the strongest automaker, usually GM, lead the contract talks and the others would have to fall in line. ALPA? They decided to let UA lead the pack. Who thought that was a good idea? There was nothing going on that gave UA ALPA the greatest leverage.

Until DL ALPA underperforms the pilots should hope that DL leads the next cycle. Guess who's contract expires first among the Big 3? Delta. That should allow UA to ride DL's coat tails.....again, just like AA/APA.

Sliceback

What great bar raising gains did UA achieve?

Why does DL have the worst, by far, vacation value?

Why does UA's lag AA's until 37 yrs LOS?

Why does UA have the worst (highest) reserve monthly hour cap in the industry?

Why does UA STILL have airport standby?

StoneQOLdCrazy

Completely untrue. Anderson started out as Frank Lorenzo's union busting lawyer. He was responsible for pushing the only contract Delta pilots have ever voted down in 2015. Bastian is a thin-skinned egomaniac who also hates unions. Just like every other airline managment group.

All this hand-wringing to defend APA. Stay at APA, leave, no one outside of APA really cares. But stop with the embarrasing rationalizations for why APA can't get it done.

NuGuy

Wait, wut?

DALs vacation currently pays and credits 4:15 per day, and goes to 4:35 next year.

And all of it is pay AND credit, which means you get 100% of that time towards your obligation to your schedule. That means more time off, not just more pay, which is what vacation in all about.

AA's is 4:35 for the 24-25 vacation, which is nice to get it year sooner, but you only credit 3:40 to your schedule? Which means you have to work that much more during a vacation month. That weak credit unbelievably lasts until 26-27, and then you only get 4 hours credited. Sounds like AMR threw a bone to vacation pay, but didn't want to take the staffing hit because, gosh, vacation is all about NOT being at work.