Easyflier301

Agree, but this speaks to the ignorance of some that think we have a much worse contract (spoiler- we don't) and then use that false logic to argue to decertify APA. Why aren't we comparing ourselves to United's reserve system that ALPA negotiated with airport standby and global reserve?

The contract negotiation piece of this debate is the weakest argument in my opinion.

Fixed the true question for you. Answer: No.

Whether any want to admit it or not, the company you're negotiating against matters far more in the contract result than the union representing you. Not to say the union isn't important to some degree, it is...a basic competence level is required... but once you achieve that, the company is only going to give what they have to. How is ALPA (with all its national resources) doing in the ATI or FEDEX negotiations?

We work for the poorest legacy that makes the least profits, has the most debt, and displays the most hostile stance toward labor because it has the highest unionized workforce. ALPA isn't going to change that, but it sure will raise our dues.

What we do have going for us is that fortunately, AA knows it needs to at least match the other legacy contracts to stay in business and compete for talent. That fact also won't change with different representation.

FXLAX

It is true that there are multiple reasons why one pilot group negotiates a good contract opposes to another pilot group. And you are right that it matters most on the economic health of the airline. But given the same set of facts, the question should be, which union would get the most juice out of the squeeze?

As for FedEx ALPA, the culprit there was reps who didn't negotiate what the membership wanted. Not enough polling with changing circumstances and pilot demographics. Since then, 10 out of the 13 reps that voted for the TA have been recalled, along with the three mec officers, and the entire negotiating and scope committees. So hopefully, just like DALAPA went through in 2015 and UALPA did last year, we can turn that into a contract that is industry leading and overwhelmingly ratified.

As for dues, ALPA is refunding 16% of our dues, making our effective dues rate 1.554%. I would bet that ALPA would lower the dues rate again, lower than that, if APA joined forces.

Honestly, we can use another 17,000 when the ALPA president is testifying before congress along with a combined PAC of $5M plus what your pilot group hauls in.

Easyflier301

Very true. What makes it hard is that no airline/union relationship works with the same set of facts. That’s one reason why the contract comparison thing to other companies as a measuring stick for the quality of a union (especially AA to DAL) is annoying.

The collective “voice” of a nationally unified pilot union, the benefits of one larger single PAC vs multiple PACs, the coziness with AFL-CIO, the merits of a national vs independent union, the dues rates, technology, rep recall ability, benefits, and general quality of representation all are valid points that should (and probably will) be debated.

Good luck to you all at FDX, hope you get what you guys want and deserve.

StoneQOLdCrazy

So you're saying AA managment is the only legacy carrier who wants to keep labor costs down and bust unions? C'mon, man. You're grasping at straws. Every single managment team across the industry wants the same things AA managment wants.

DALPA raised the bar. Then UALPA pattern bargained off of that...and then APA accomplished nothing to raise the bar for the industry. Just hitched a free ride. Then SWAPA leapfrogged APA.

That's a clear failure of unionism and leadership within APA. Spare us the weak excuse that AA managment is the reason for APA's failures.

ImSoSuss

Plus all three legacies were in the same position during the last contract negotiations. Their pilots never had more leverage. Apples and oranges to the Fed Ex situation and not even comparable. The fact they couldn’t secure a single improvement to our trip trading system is criminal in itself. APA needs to go yesterday.

Sheriff Bart

2 thoughts from an undecided….


APA is “us” representing 100% of the org. Its run by pilots who are “us”.

Can some someone explain if “we” are not able to elect leaders we believe represent us well now when we control 100%, why would be able to do that with ALPA where we would only control a minority percentage?

Wont it still be “us” who will be running things?

Would we be better off to elect the people we seem to be counting on for our future now, and change our policies now, while we retain 100% control?

Who are these people who will lead us at ALPA? How can we hear from them now? Its all very mysterious to me.


As for negotiations, how can you expect ANY pilots to compete against a multi-billion dollar public company and their full-time firms? Do those law firms form a committee and train-up a couple of lawyers to fly their corporate jet and run their flight department?

Its a backwards premise doomed to fail. Set objectives, and incentivize pros to get it done efficiently and penalize them when they don’t. Get respect at the table by playing at their level.

We all know there is a LOT of low-hanging fruit where we could help the company reach their objectives. The union should be fighting for a better airline as well, just from a different perspective and one where the pilots share in that success.

Margaritaville

The source is likely a union busting firm (probably FordHarrison) speaking through Fox News to stir up rage and clicks on a non issue. Most major organizations have these "language style guides" now. Including our airline. I agree it's woke BS but it's no reason to pull a card lol. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Don't let the MSM control you and tell you what to be mad about. Be mad that our union is taking our money and giving us very little in return.

FXLAX

What I'm saying is that for your given facts/circumstances at AA, do you beleive that the structure and resources of ALPA would result in a better contract and or better accountability? So its not a comparison of your contract to others. Its an argument that compares your own contract to your own hypothetical ALPA contract.

Easyflier301

what I’m saying is that every company has a number (held very close to their vest) that they can actually afford while still keeping the company above water. Sure, the quality of the union negotiations can be judged by how close you perceive you got to that number (because you’ll never know it).

It’s not even debatable that that number is much higher at DAL than AA. So change the union all you want, but the industry profit leader should always be the one setting the bar…And that’s how it worked last cycle (to all of our benefits).

Good on UAL ALPA for squeaking out another few bucks once DAL set a new standard, yes it would have been cool if APA could have done that for the moral victory as well.

Easyflier301

I believe that in 2027, Delta will set the bar again, and AA will be forced to match it or come very close no matter who is sitting across the table from them.