DCA A320 vs 737
11-17-2023, 07:01 PM
#31
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Joined APC: Jun 2019
Position: B747 FO
Posts: 1,228
Open (?) the speed window and if the wave is so strong(cyclical) that the autothrust is lagging significantly select a high cruise speed as the speed trend is trending towards an undiserable speed (or lower if the speed i high and the autothrust is slow reducing). You're just changing the target speed. Eg if the managed bug is .78 and the mountain has the plane at .80 the power will reduce. If you select .82 the power will increase. To some degree you're just using the 'open' (I forget the AB term for opening the speed window) function of the autothrust to limit the thrust decreases or increases. It's kinda like over-riding the autothrottles in the Boeing but you're doing it electronically via the open speed window.
11-17-2023, 07:39 PM
#32
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Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,335
Open (?) the speed window and if the wave is so strong(cyclical) that the autothrust is lagging significantly select a high cruise speed as the speed trend is trending towards an undiserable speed (or lower if the speed i high and the autothrust is slow reducing). You're just changing the target speed. Eg if the managed bug is .78 and the mountain has the plane at .80 the power will reduce. If you select .82 the power will increase. To some degree you're just using the 'open' (I forget the AB term for opening the speed window) function of the autothrust to limit the thrust decreases or increases. It's kinda like over-riding the autothrottles in the Boeing but you're doing it electronically via the open speed window.
11-17-2023, 11:34 PM
#33
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Position: B777 LS
Posts: 142
What about leaving the whole 'speed window' issue to the aircraft as it's designed to operate and helping with a speedbrake as it get uncomfortably close to the barber pole?
No experience on the Airbus (hoping to get some starting January), but on the Boeing (737/787/777) 'overriding' the throttles has been like a desease.
Spool up times are significant at high altitudes, so pulling those throttles back too much is asking for trouble.
Speedbrake, whilst not the most elegant does the trick, always.
No experience on the Airbus (hoping to get some starting January), but on the Boeing (737/787/777) 'overriding' the throttles has been like a desease.
Spool up times are significant at high altitudes, so pulling those throttles back too much is asking for trouble.
Speedbrake, whilst not the most elegant does the trick, always.
11-18-2023, 04:01 AM
#34
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I'm happy to assume the training department knows how to create/train procedures that make sense in an Airbus. My problem is when they try to shoehorn those procedures into a Boeing in the name of 'standardization'. I'm already in school for a month to learn a new airplane - I can learn procedures that make sense for that airframe too.
11-18-2023, 07:18 AM
#35
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I'm happy to assume the training department knows how to create/train procedures that make sense in an Airbus. My problem is when they try to shoehorn those procedures into a Boeing in the name of 'standardization'. I'm already in school for a month to learn a new airplane - I can learn procedures that make sense for that airframe too.
11-18-2023, 11:17 AM
#36
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I can recall at least 2 moments when the FO said "can we do this?" Flying the LGA Expressway Visual 31 as depicted. It's a hoot. Right up there with the DCA River 19 (18 for us old folks...). The other was landing the A330 with manual auto thrust. After landing at least one FO said "can we do that?" He'd never seen anyone fly the A330 with manual thrust. 1000/3 = manual thrust every landing. That constant 'power up, power back' is lousy airmanship but it's Airbus SOP. :-/
"Your aircraft..." Wow...you're right that's a terrible failure and culture failure. Decades ago an FO sued for discrimination because they weren't upgraded. The court case was interesting...Captains testimony included "they said 'your aircraft'" at minimums on an ILS because they didn't fell comfortable. I'd never recommend them for upgrade" The company prevailed in the law suit.
I liked both the 737 and 320. They are different and each has significant strenghts. IMO the notable strenghts - 737 is flying and performance and the 320 is ergonomics (noise, space)I. I stick with my observation - "737's a better plane, 320's a better job." I tell FO's to bid both. They can do 1-2 years on each and decide for themselves if the differences make one of the aircraft undiserable to them. They're going to spend years, or perhaps decades, on one of them as Captain.
"Your aircraft..." Wow...you're right that's a terrible failure and culture failure. Decades ago an FO sued for discrimination because they weren't upgraded. The court case was interesting...Captains testimony included "they said 'your aircraft'" at minimums on an ILS because they didn't fell comfortable. I'd never recommend them for upgrade" The company prevailed in the law suit.
I liked both the 737 and 320. They are different and each has significant strenghts. IMO the notable strenghts - 737 is flying and performance and the 320 is ergonomics (noise, space)I. I stick with my observation - "737's a better plane, 320's a better job." I tell FO's to bid both. They can do 1-2 years on each and decide for themselves if the differences make one of the aircraft undiserable to them. They're going to spend years, or perhaps decades, on one of them as Captain.
The solution is to make all the former charted visuals that were hand flown into FMC/FMS "visual" approaches and leave them coupled; Like the LGA Expressway. It's an FMC procedure now, so is the DCA visual 19... autopilot all the way to min autopilot altitude..
Unless some really kick-butt AI goes into a next-gen autothrust, no autothrust can replace a human's ability to "feel" and anticipate. A a human using manual thrust would never pull back the power for a transient airpeed bump from a thermal knowing the backside of the thermal will bring the airspeed back to on target. Autothrust systems just jocky the power...
For sure the 737's moving thrust levers and clutches are far better for a pilot to simply intervien in these transient speed excursions and leave the autothrust on, very nice.
Rumor has it Airbus is going with active sticks (both move together) soon.
The latest podcast on aapilots talks about the current state of display replacements.
11-18-2023, 12:11 PM
#37
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That only works if we're cleared for the River visual - if we're cleared for the RNP then yes the AP has to stay on.
Last edited by aa73; 11-18-2023 at 12:23 PM.
11-18-2023, 12:21 PM
#38
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Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,951
All these rj guys are coming from planes with no auto throttle and no auto land. Many with no RNP. So this “they cant hand fly visuals” whining is mostly hot garbage….
sure, some guys suck, but its largely them being told to NOT fly the bus manually and never having done it in new plane, or see others do it. The training dept is starting to see the light, maybe
sure, some guys suck, but its largely them being told to NOT fly the bus manually and never having done it in new plane, or see others do it. The training dept is starting to see the light, maybe
11-18-2023, 05:07 PM
#40
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Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,299
The -200,-300 and -400, not the NG or MAX.
The biggest problem I see is not fully understanding the A320 automation. That said, quite often the answer it "Autopilot off, flight directors off" and/or "Autothrust off." But I tell guys that need to understand the automation when they get in the airplane. And that automation can suck you in and have you just watching and saying "Why is it doing that" and not doing anything about it. But I've seem that in a bunch of A/C.
The biggest problem I see is not fully understanding the A320 automation. That said, quite often the answer it "Autopilot off, flight directors off" and/or "Autothrust off." But I tell guys that need to understand the automation when they get in the airplane. And that automation can suck you in and have you just watching and saying "Why is it doing that" and not doing anything about it. But I've seem that in a bunch of A/C.
Last edited by R57 relay; 11-18-2023 at 05:33 PM.
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