ImSoSuss

Nothing, but they have no perspective..... other than the military.

ImSoSuss

The people that keep saying that QOL at a Legacy is better worked in an era where working for a Regional absolutely sucked and you were doing literally 12 legs a day between St Louis and Branson. After Part 117 there really is not that much of a difference.

QOL will NOT improve with this new contract, not one bit. Any QOL gains we got came at the expense of other QOL items. Our biggest QOL gain is with something that will happen to you on average once or twice a year, recovery obligation. I cannot believe we spend so much negotiating capital on that.

Sheriff Bart

Some of these arguments assume airlines are stable, and major changes can’t happen.

Giving up the opportunity to gain seniority at a legacy might come back to bite.

Place your bets…

GhettoJet

It is, but lets face reality. The planes may say American but this isn't Bob Crandall's American. This is Cactus that grew a widebody operation, and with every passing year that's going to become more apparent as the gap between DAL/UAL and "AAL" widens.

Easyflier301

This is the unfortunate reality, and is even more reason to evaluate the TA on its own merits, from this company, compared only against what AA pilots currently have now. AA over the last decade is the legacy that makes the least profit, has the most debt, and is currently in the most precarious financial position should there be a downturn. Thats reality. Those that scream "THIS IS THE COUNTRY'S LARGEST ULCC!" while at the same time saying "GIVE ME TOP OF THE INDUSTRY WORK RULES AND PAY RATES!!" is oxymoronic. We're not going to get it. Doesn't matter who represents us. The company can still ultimately dig in their heels on 6 hours of sick accrual or other manning issues, even in mediation. Ask SWA or FDX (ALPA) pilots how the mediation process is working for them.

The "ARE DELTA AND UAL PILOTS WORTH MORE THAN WE ARE?!!" argument is just as silly. A kid in my neighborhood whose rich parents give him a BMW is not "worth" more than a kid whose parents can only afford to let him borrow the used station wagon. It just means that Kid A has richer parents. Same goes with pilots at the legacies. I don't see that reality ever discussed here. Many people over the past few years (even pre-covid) could have gone elsewhere but came to AA knowing what it was, hoping to make it better, but understanding that the company had close to 40B in debt, the largest unionized workforce in the industry, and didn't own its own oil refinery or have a massive international network. They probably chose it for domiciles, convenience, retirements, or flow. Those that flowed probably could have gone elsewhere had they so chose, but didn't for whatever reason. Thats reality when it comes to this TA and understanding why APA/AA couldn't "raise the bar." Not Stockholm syndrome, self-loathing, or anything else. Just a clear headed reality of who we chose to work for. Industry leading is always going to come from the industry leaders.

Name User

Everyone hated Crandall and he brought the B-scale to AA

Under US Airways management pay has doubled (or tripled if you were former US Air) in under ten years. I didn't care for Parker's lack of focus on operations but he was a pretty decent CEO, and Isom is going to be even better.

Do you guys really think the other carriers don't have our same gripes?

I seriously wonder how some of y'all will cope if/when there is a slowdown if you're this sourpuss over one of the best times in history to work as an airline pilot, at one of the best gigs in the world.

Turn off facebook and stop comparing yourself to random postings on the internet.

GhettoJet

You're not wrong in that analysis. The ones who were wrong were the young guys who came here thinking they were coming to the national flag carrier American Airlines and bypassed UAL/DAL for reasons like living in base or rapid seniority advancement (age 67 is coming). The facts on the ground haven't changed from PHL recommending that AAL guys with < 5 years of seniority apply to UAL/DAL. I'd probably move that number up a bit.

The problem is that this single minded pursuit of matching UAL/DAL's pay rates have resulted in a TA that substantially lags UAL/DAL in quality of life. What's $4 an hour worth? What's an extra day off worth? What's that extra 12 days a year off if you sell even some of it back to the company? If you assume an 80 hour month for ease of calculation, that's $320 a month or$3840 a year. 12 days a year is 63 hours of credit. That's a hell of a lot more than $3840, and that's how ratemongers shoot themselves in the foot when they negotiate. They can't see the forest for the trees, and that's how we got to a place where QOL at Frontier/Spirit is better than AAL unless you're widebody.

Oh well, I've got one foot out the door anyway so I'll just cash my retro if it passes and ride off into the sunset. But for those of you with a longer time horizon, learn the lesson here and go somewhere else if you can - if you can't do everything you can to get ALPA on the property so that you have better leadership handling this process for you next go around. If you don't replace APA, you're going to be leaving total compensation on the table for the rest of your career.

GhettoJet

Outside of hourly rate and what is currently a low risk of furlough, what makes you think this is one of the best times in history to work as an airline pilot? Because working as a captain for a flag carrier under the CAB was a pretty good deal...a much better deal than it is today. It's a matter of perspective really: if you're comparing this to flying for Mesa or being in the military it's probably better but not if you're comparing it to the golden age of Pan Am, Braniff, Eastern, Western, and TWA. There was a time when a major airline captain could afford to buy a new Cadillac every year and retired with a substantial pension...and you weren't subject to the level of iPad driven bureaucratic bull**** you are today. Yeah, you had to keep your Jepp binders updated, but it was a small price to pay.

ImSoSuss

Exactly. Talk to Legacy pilots from the past. They had much better schedules, more days off, and much higher salaries when adjusted for inflation. Some people here just say words and have no clue what they are talking about.

Name User

There were so few jobs back then. 90% of the people posting here today (including myself) would not have been working back then.

The 'golden age' was pretty short when you look at all things considered and was really only golden for a select few. You weren't making big pay flying small aircraft back then like we are today, your pension was an illusion (of the four carriers you mentioned, 4 of the 5 are poof and the fifth was gutted).

Example, pilot hired at Pan Am in 1955 made $4500/month in 2023 dollars. By the mid-80's they topped out at $400k in 2023 dollars (about what senior top end guys make now, maybe a little less) but was just about to have their pension and pay slashed...and by retirement time it went *poof* just five years later with nothing to show for.

But he didn't have to do ipad updates so I guess he won at life?

Meanwhile I've worked for parker since I was 24, millionaire at 35, doubled by 37, tripled by 39. I (should) have 10m+ at retirement, that is MY MONEY, not the airlines, and should AA go under I can walk away whole. The amount of jobs available for people is incredible - just accelerate at flight training and you can write your own ticket. 50k CFI jobs, 100k RJ first year FO jobs, anyone provided they get their certs can get hired.

As for schedules, they used to fly small jets on 20-40 min flights back then, can you imagine the *****ing that would ensue if we still had 300+ MD82s with analog gauges doing 6-7 leg days? LOL