AIP 2.0
07-28-2023, 01:34 PM
#121
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,223
10 hour rig would accomplish similar but with the caveat that the 10 hour is now industry standard and easily bargained. 6:00 ACD is not nor are any of the other things you mentioned. AA is not going to lead on things like this, ever, and APA is incapable of making them.
I'm OK with seeing what the effect is. I'm not OK with voting it in without knowing the company response to building schedules. That is just nuts. IMO.
07-28-2023, 01:35 PM
#122
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,083
I don't have a law degree, so can anyone explain (nicely) what this means:
Additions to the Post-Ratification LOA
Additions to the Post-Ratification LOA
- Evaluate for potential modification and interaction to pairing construction:
- Enhanced narrowbody pairing distribution parameters
- Unaugmented long-duty day RIG (10 hour 1:1)
07-28-2023, 01:35 PM
#123
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,223
Wait what? Implementing Delta's contract would put us behind? Isn't that what the No voter argument here is, that we trail Delta and United? If our contract is the exact same, how does that trail?
07-28-2023, 01:37 PM
#125
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,223
I don't have a law degree, so can anyone explain (nicely) what this means:
Additions to the Post-Ratification LOA
Additions to the Post-Ratification LOA
- Evaluate for potential modification and interaction to pairing construction:
- Enhanced narrowbody pairing distribution parameters
- Unaugmented long-duty day RIG (10 hour 1:1)
Is working less than ten hour duty days worth it, if you are working 2-4 days per month more? What if it killed commutability, and most trips now start early and end late with a circadian swap? That was also one potential outcome.
07-28-2023, 01:41 PM
#126
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,083
He was offering DAL's old contract with a 5 year duration. We would be in year 2-3 of it now. By the time it became amendable DAL's NEW contract would be amendable in less than 12 months.
07-28-2023, 01:45 PM
#127
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,083
It means APA doesn't want it voted in without knowing the effect - they want to evaluate the rig on company pairing construction first. 10 hour rig could potentially have the unintended effect of working more days, with less credit per day.
Is working less than ten hour duty days worth it, if you are working 2-4 days per month more? What if it killed commutability, and most trips now start early and end late with a circadian swap? That was also one potential outcome.
Is working less than ten hour duty days worth it, if you are working 2-4 days per month more? What if it killed commutability, and most trips now start early and end late with a circadian swap? That was also one potential outcome.
We also have no clue whatsoever what the split duty trips will do to the optimizer but we are taking mgmt's and one single dude from the scheduling committee's word that it will reduce 5 day trips and 30 hour layovers. For some reason we are allowing this clear negative-to-pilots item in but won't do the same with the 10 hour rig? Why?
O by the way there a a lot of pilots out there that want 5 day trips.
07-28-2023, 01:51 PM
#128
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,083
So a min time 3 day would pay you 15:45. If on one of those 3 days you worked 11:00 hours duty the same trip would pay 16:45.
The argument against such a rig is that it could create a "pandora's box" effect where we don't know what the optimizer would do to our schedules. The last time we added something similar(ACD) it reduced some desirable sequences because the optimizer shoved them into other, less efficient, sequences in order to fly off soft time pay that was introduced with the 5:15.
That said ACD was still a win overall and has now become industry standard even if it did have some downside that was not accounted for.
07-28-2023, 01:54 PM
#129
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2021
Position: FO
Posts: 223
It's 1 minute of pay for every minute you are on duty over 10 hours in addition to the pay you receive for block time.
So a min time 3 day would pay you 15:45. If on one of those 3 days you worked 11:00 hours duty the same trip would pay 16:45.
The argument against such a rig is that it could create a "pandora's box" effect where we don't know what the optimizer would do to our schedules. The last time we added something similar(ACD) it reduced some desirable sequences because the optimizer shoved them into other, less efficient, sequences in order to fly off soft time pay that was introduced with the 5:15.
That said ACD was still a win overall and has now become industry standard even if it did have some downside that was not accounted for.
So a min time 3 day would pay you 15:45. If on one of those 3 days you worked 11:00 hours duty the same trip would pay 16:45.
The argument against such a rig is that it could create a "pandora's box" effect where we don't know what the optimizer would do to our schedules. The last time we added something similar(ACD) it reduced some desirable sequences because the optimizer shoved them into other, less efficient, sequences in order to fly off soft time pay that was introduced with the 5:15.
That said ACD was still a win overall and has now become industry standard even if it did have some downside that was not accounted for.
07-28-2023, 01:58 PM
#130
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 199
Well they don't.
Delta's biggest hub by far is on the east coast (ATL). Their midwest hubs are pretty small - MSP and SLC. DTW is pretty big, but still no where near the size of the coastal hubs.
No idea about United, but their CLE, IAH, ORD bases aren't very big. They have sizeable bases in EWR and SFO, also coasts. Not sure about DEN. It has been growing in the past few years.
Our biggest pilot based hub is in the midwest (DFW)
Delta's biggest hub by far is on the east coast (ATL). Their midwest hubs are pretty small - MSP and SLC. DTW is pretty big, but still no where near the size of the coastal hubs.
No idea about United, but their CLE, IAH, ORD bases aren't very big. They have sizeable bases in EWR and SFO, also coasts. Not sure about DEN. It has been growing in the past few years.
Our biggest pilot based hub is in the midwest (DFW)
Delta.
MSP and SLC respectively are Delta’s second and third largest hubs after ATL. DTW comes in fourth place. Their coastal hubs (NYC, SEA, LAX) are their smallest bases.
United.
Their largest hubs are ORD, IAH and DEN. In that order.
The notion that the 10-hour rig would push flying out of the Midwest is as dependable as the Titan submersible's ability to fly.
If APA did, in fact, make that claim, allow me to paraphrase sergeant Dignam: "they’re like mushrooms. Feed them 💩 and keep them in the dark".
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
