Vote NO. Why:
07-14-2023, 06:23 AM
#71
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Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 179
Agreed. But this isn't "dropping the ball". This is an intentional management strategy. They are choosing to staff the operation like Walmart chooses to staff its cash registers, and this TA has been engineered to support that strategy, and APA negotiators decided to enable that. Yes voters who won't look beyond pay rates will wonder why they hate their work life five years from now. I've had a multiple decade career, and have one foot out the door. I could easily vote yes, take the money and run. I'm voting no because in the end that $ won't make any difference to my financial security in retirement and I have at least some responsibility to try and leave things better than they were.
07-14-2023, 06:44 AM
#72
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Posts: 179
Just a discussion point which may or may not be valid: those who say things like "electronic notification is not a big deal" or "i'm glad to join the 21st century".
Define 'electronic contract without first person notification'. Is this limited to Duty Periods or does it extend to DFPs?
Define 'electronic contract without first person notification'. Is this limited to Duty Periods or does it extend to DFPs?
07-14-2023, 07:02 AM
#73
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Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,083
Agreed. But this isn't "dropping the ball". This is an intentional management strategy. They are choosing to staff the operation like Walmart chooses to staff its cash registers, and this TA has been engineered to support that strategy, and APA negotiators decided to enable that. Yes voters who won't look beyond pay rates will wonder why they hate their work life five years from now. I've had a multiple decade career, and have one foot out the door. I could easily vote yes, take the money and run. I'm voting no because in the end that $ won't make any difference to my financial security in retirement and I have at least some responsibility to try and leave things better than they were.
07-14-2023, 07:08 AM
#74
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Joined APC: May 2023
Posts: 513
Just a discussion point which may or may not be valid: those who say things like "electronic notification is not a big deal" or "i'm glad to join the 21st century".
Define 'electronic contract without first person notification'. Is this limited to Duty Periods or does it extend to DFPs?
Define 'electronic contract without first person notification'. Is this limited to Duty Periods or does it extend to DFPs?
I think this language mitigates your concern.
07-14-2023, 07:19 AM
#75
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Posts: 1,083
"While on duty, pilots are expected to verify ECS messages received from the Company regarding the pilot's schedule." "When a pilot is not on duty, they are not required to verify ECS messages. Pilots will verify ECS messages sent while not on duty once they resume duty."
I think this language mitigates your concern.
I think this language mitigates your concern.
I have asked some questions through email to my reps about how "catch up flying" will work in relation to ECS and 117. Haven't heard anything back but this could become another example of a not-on-duty ECS notification that a pilot is responsible for.
Also not that the language says "verify" because also in the language is that verification is not required for a pilot to be held responsible for an ECS message. This slope is slippery and steep.
07-14-2023, 08:23 AM
#76
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Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,959
You’ll be negotiating, possibly voting on a new contract 5 years from now. This TA will pass.
The issue with American is your pilot group is understaffed by at least a few thousand pilots. Your management can’t afford to give up too much and create a scenario where they have even less available pilots to support the operation. Your management dropped the ball on stalling hiring and slow rolling the operation after Covid ended. United has hired an extra 2,000 pilots since everything opened back up.
Your contract is a copy and paste of the Delta TA with a few exceptions. I’d be upset it took this long for APA to copy and paste a contract.
The issue with American is your pilot group is understaffed by at least a few thousand pilots. Your management can’t afford to give up too much and create a scenario where they have even less available pilots to support the operation. Your management dropped the ball on stalling hiring and slow rolling the operation after Covid ended. United has hired an extra 2,000 pilots since everything opened back up.
Your contract is a copy and paste of the Delta TA with a few exceptions. I’d be upset it took this long for APA to copy and paste a contract.
07-14-2023, 10:27 AM
#77
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Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,247
AA's reserve language blows United's out of the water. United's is so bad, they can't even entice new hires to a $300k a year position.
After being in the bottom 10 CA's system wide, I grew to appreciate the AA contract.
People are bi-polar. In one instance they talk up QOL, in the other they fixate on a carrier making a couple dollars an hour more than them. APA has specialists that cost out the contracts (I think they use ALPA) and ours is right up there in terms of overall costs to the company.
07-14-2023, 10:37 AM
#78
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Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,083
By a couple bucks an hour? Who cares?
AA's reserve language blows United's out of the water. United's is so bad, they can't even entice new hires to a $300k a year position.
After being in the bottom 10 CA's system wide, I grew to appreciate the AA contract.
People are bi-polar. In one instance they talk up QOL, in the other they fixate on a carrier making a couple dollars an hour more than them. APA has specialists that cost out the contracts (I think they use ALPA) and ours is right up there in terms of overall costs to the company.
AA's reserve language blows United's out of the water. United's is so bad, they can't even entice new hires to a $300k a year position.
After being in the bottom 10 CA's system wide, I grew to appreciate the AA contract.
People are bi-polar. In one instance they talk up QOL, in the other they fixate on a carrier making a couple dollars an hour more than them. APA has specialists that cost out the contracts (I think they use ALPA) and ours is right up there in terms of overall costs to the company.
07-14-2023, 10:52 AM
#79
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Joined APC: May 2023
Posts: 513
By a couple bucks an hour? Who cares?
AA's reserve language blows United's out of the water. United's is so bad, they can't even entice new hires to a $300k a year position.
After being in the bottom 10 CA's system wide, I grew to appreciate the AA contract.
People are bi-polar. In one instance they talk up QOL, in the other they fixate on a carrier making a couple dollars an hour more than them. APA has specialists that cost out the contracts (I think they use ALPA) and ours is right up there in terms of overall costs to the company.
AA's reserve language blows United's out of the water. United's is so bad, they can't even entice new hires to a $300k a year position.
After being in the bottom 10 CA's system wide, I grew to appreciate the AA contract.
People are bi-polar. In one instance they talk up QOL, in the other they fixate on a carrier making a couple dollars an hour more than them. APA has specialists that cost out the contracts (I think they use ALPA) and ours is right up there in terms of overall costs to the company.
Though I am fairly happy with the current TA, we have to be willing to adapt our mindset if circumstances change. Not doing so would be nothing less than settling.
07-14-2023, 11:38 AM
#80
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Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,247
I agree that people hate on the company too much and I think that AA is very underrated by too many applicants who are only focused on DL and UA. However, I think you are being too much of a prisoner of the moment if you are saying that you don't care if United AND Delta (snap up) exceed our pay prior to us voting and your justification is United's current reserve rules. Things change quickly.
Though I am fairly happy with the current TA, we have to be willing to adapt our mindset if circumstances change. Not doing so would be nothing less than settling.
Though I am fairly happy with the current TA, we have to be willing to adapt our mindset if circumstances change. Not doing so would be nothing less than settling.
My thoughts are, we should cross that bridge when we get there
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