Margaritaville

That's dumb. It's no different than when they tried to mandate extra crew members when the 737 came out. It didn't work then and it won't work now.

The best way to fight automation replacing us is to become part of the 60,000 member union most opposed to it that has the loudest voice and the most money to fight it.

dsevo

Ok, I also think doing nothing is dumb. We’ll never solve this problem if we don’t solve it now.

FNGFO

Im thinking 60/40 myself, but I don’t think any of us should be surprised that this management group trotted out the fabled approved by 50.1% TA or that our union leadership agreed to it.

The BOD comments say it all to me. The general sentiment that we’re not getting any better offer from AA is near universal. I don’t think that they’re lying, and believe that AA is more than happy to put off their multibillion dollar expenditure until a mediator looks at us and says “Looks fine to me.”

Both yes and no votes make a large assumption. One assumes that this is as far as we can push AA, we largely have ourselves to blame for that, and the other assumes that management will come racing back to the table with a better deal after a failed vote. Or that a mediator will show up with candy baskets in hand.

Recent mediation comments make me dubious of the latter, and my three seconds on property make me somewhat certain of the former. So the choice seems obvious to me.

And I’ll be one of the ones out 5 figures as management takes 18 months to figure out the impossible task of moving a pay step to the diabolical and infamous date of actually being hired.

Margaritaville

We need to "do something" but we also need to make sure that something contributes positively. No other airline has a minimum crew complement in their contract so that would be an outlier and mediators don't favor outliers. We'd be way better to just join the industry wide fight than hold out for contract language that probably wouldn't hold up in court. Single pilot or no pilot passenger ops probably isn't going to happen during the career of anyone currently working here anyhow.

dsevo

This is not accurate. It is explicitly stated in the current DAL contract with zero ambiguity. Page 1-8, item number 9, middle of the page. Have a look yourself. When you’re refuting something, at least have the facts right.

https://d2r1lrrqctgamh.cloudfront.ne...TA%20Clean.pdf

ACEssXfer

Well this is inconvenient.

Margaritaville

I stand corrected.

I'm sure the Delta boys will enjoy their 2 pilot ocean crossings. But I digress.

I'm still not sure this is the hill to die on since single pilot pax ops is unlikely during the remainder of our careers (especially for those of us over 40) and lets face it if automation actually does progress to the level needed, the union will just be forced to negotiate that away anyhow. It's not like they've never given up anything in a contract before. But if this is your sword to fall on then I guess you've made up your mind how you're voting.

I'd rather take the money and moderate QOL improvements now rather than hold out for something that's probably moot.

Name User

Delta apparently loosened up scope to get that and "medical freedom".

You willing to give up scope?

I read the Delta language. A lawyer would drive a truck through it. Autonomous aircraft won't have pilots, they will have a "flight manager" or some such.

No one has been more vocal than me on this subject (just search past threads I've started). Mandating it in contracts is not going to solve it.

For starters, removing one pilot from a 767 sized jet has the same economic equivalence of reducing fuel burn by 25%. If AA does not do that, a competitor will, and it won't matter that we have two pilots because no one will be buying tickets on us (too expensive compared to competition).

Second, this is not an issue until 2035-2040 time frame. Let's tackle it when retirements subside and we have more leeway in regards to other QOL issues as well. The company is physically unable to hire replacement pilots at the feeders, there is little chance they are going to agree today on matters that increase pilots required on property (or put a high price on QOL issues).

Thirdly, anyone in the 35 and under age bracket needs to take their signing bonuses and RJ paychecks and forgo the $1m home and $80k truck and invest the money today. There is little the union can do to stop single/no-pilot from happening.

dsevo

What comes LONG before pilotless AC? Single pilot ops. That’s what DALPA is protecting against. I’d say you can driving a truck through zero language a lot easier than through the DAL language. At least it exists.

Look, I don’t care how you or anyone else votes. I said why I’m voting the way I am, and so far I’ve seen no evidence to change that. This is one of many issues, and I’m perfectly comfortable in my current life.

ACEssXfer

Math on this?

On a 737 if I use VERY conservative numbers of 4000lbs/hour and $3/gallon is something like 17-1800 dollars per hour. 25% of that being $425/hour.