Vote NO. Why:
07-13-2023, 01:53 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,349
Yeah, Ed’s comments were unexpected to me. I thought he’d be more positive about what a NO vote could accomplish. He didn’t seem optimistic that the company would give more, and said mediation is tough, “they don’t like to mess with work rules”. He did not say how he would vote though.
07-13-2023, 03:41 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2015
Posts: 212
I am still reading the contract “I’m a slow reader” lol. All I want to point out from reading these forums is that May 1, 2023 we had 96% of our members vote 99% in favor of a strike. We already knew what the money would be. The money has not changed. Why even go through the motions of voting in favor of a strike if this was not about money. It was about QOL and work rules. If this TA passes those who voted in favor of a strike IMO should not have voted in favor of a strike. loyalty to the money was more important (nothing wrong with that if that drives you I like money too!). As a new guy here I thought we were going to fight for something other than the paycheck which was already presented to us. Am I to understand that the 1% that voted against the strike were the only honest people here and that no matter what quality of life didn’t matter?
I see complaints about APA, but WE are the last defense to “try” to get some more QOL issues resolved, but from what I’m seeing fear of losing that money is more of an issue. We should have simply instructed our APA to get that loot and nothing else mattered. We talk about APA and their shortcomings, but what about ours as a group. The 18 month discretion of the company for one and no snap bothers me personally, for others it may be something different that bothers them significantly. If it does stand by your strike vote unless the money is more important. You were willing then, why not “try” to get what you want now. Yes it’s a gamble we “could” lose doesn’t mean we “will” lose. That’s management’s position they are and will fight for what they want Why won’t we?
It’s Going to take me about a week maybe two to get through this entire contract and understand it. I just want to know, all these YES voters who have read the full contract already, you statistically were part of the 96% that voted and voted 99% in favor of a strike in May. What changed your/our tune, and this ultimately to anyone who votes yes, are the QOL improvements in this proposed TA, (that even our BOD says they were disappointed in) that much better than our voice we had on May 1? If it is definitely vote yes. But if not why settle, we are 15000 pilots strong. Let’s at least try to get what we want. I understand the consequences, but consequences can positive or negative. You’ll never achieve anything unless you try for it, those that settle will get exactly what they settled for.
I see complaints about APA, but WE are the last defense to “try” to get some more QOL issues resolved, but from what I’m seeing fear of losing that money is more of an issue. We should have simply instructed our APA to get that loot and nothing else mattered. We talk about APA and their shortcomings, but what about ours as a group. The 18 month discretion of the company for one and no snap bothers me personally, for others it may be something different that bothers them significantly. If it does stand by your strike vote unless the money is more important. You were willing then, why not “try” to get what you want now. Yes it’s a gamble we “could” lose doesn’t mean we “will” lose. That’s management’s position they are and will fight for what they want Why won’t we?
It’s Going to take me about a week maybe two to get through this entire contract and understand it. I just want to know, all these YES voters who have read the full contract already, you statistically were part of the 96% that voted and voted 99% in favor of a strike in May. What changed your/our tune, and this ultimately to anyone who votes yes, are the QOL improvements in this proposed TA, (that even our BOD says they were disappointed in) that much better than our voice we had on May 1? If it is definitely vote yes. But if not why settle, we are 15000 pilots strong. Let’s at least try to get what we want. I understand the consequences, but consequences can positive or negative. You’ll never achieve anything unless you try for it, those that settle will get exactly what they settled for.
07-13-2023, 05:41 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 226
I am still reading the contract “I’m a slow reader” lol. All I want to point out from reading these forums is that May 1, 2023 we had 96% of our members vote 99% in favor of a strike. We already knew what the money would be. The money has not changed. Why even go through the motions of voting in favor of a strike if this was not about money. It was about QOL and work rules. If this TA passes those who voted in favor of a strike IMO should not have voted in favor of a strike. loyalty to the money was more important (nothing wrong with that if that drives you I like money too!). As a new guy here I thought we were going to fight for something other than the paycheck which was already presented to us. Am I to understand that the 1% that voted against the strike were the only honest people here and that no matter what quality of life didn’t matter?
I see complaints about APA, but WE are the last defense to “try” to get some more QOL issues resolved, but from what I’m seeing fear of losing that money is more of an issue. We should have simply instructed our APA to get that loot and nothing else mattered. We talk about APA and their shortcomings, but what about ours as a group. The 18 month discretion of the company for one and no snap bothers me personally, for others it may be something different that bothers them significantly. If it does stand by your strike vote unless the money is more important. You were willing then, why not “try” to get what you want now. Yes it’s a gamble we “could” lose doesn’t mean we “will” lose. That’s management’s position they are and will fight for what they want Why won’t we?
It’s Going to take me about a week maybe two to get through this entire contract and understand it. I just want to know, all these YES voters who have read the full contract already, you statistically were part of the 96% that voted and voted 99% in favor of a strike in May. What changed your/our tune, and this ultimately to anyone who votes yes, are the QOL improvements in this proposed TA, (that even our BOD says they were disappointed in) that much better than our voice we had on May 1? If it is definitely vote yes. But if not why settle, we are 15000 pilots strong. Let’s at least try to get what we want. I understand the consequences, but consequences can positive or negative. You’ll never achieve anything unless you try for it, those that settle will get exactly what they settled for.
I see complaints about APA, but WE are the last defense to “try” to get some more QOL issues resolved, but from what I’m seeing fear of losing that money is more of an issue. We should have simply instructed our APA to get that loot and nothing else mattered. We talk about APA and their shortcomings, but what about ours as a group. The 18 month discretion of the company for one and no snap bothers me personally, for others it may be something different that bothers them significantly. If it does stand by your strike vote unless the money is more important. You were willing then, why not “try” to get what you want now. Yes it’s a gamble we “could” lose doesn’t mean we “will” lose. That’s management’s position they are and will fight for what they want Why won’t we?
It’s Going to take me about a week maybe two to get through this entire contract and understand it. I just want to know, all these YES voters who have read the full contract already, you statistically were part of the 96% that voted and voted 99% in favor of a strike in May. What changed your/our tune, and this ultimately to anyone who votes yes, are the QOL improvements in this proposed TA, (that even our BOD says they were disappointed in) that much better than our voice we had on May 1? If it is definitely vote yes. But if not why settle, we are 15000 pilots strong. Let’s at least try to get what we want. I understand the consequences, but consequences can positive or negative. You’ll never achieve anything unless you try for it, those that settle will get exactly what they settled for.
I was leaning “yes” with the bullet point summary, but now after seeing the language I’m an easy “no.” Anecdotal, but I’ve had many friends tell me the same, some of them being hardliner “yes” votes a week ago.
I was convinced the TA would have an overwhelming membership pass, now I’m not so sure.
07-13-2023, 05:48 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,551
Yeah, because the guys falling all over premium and CKP positions, or the guys that can't be bothered to read and comprehend CT's 8 point letter from last year have nothing to do with it.
APA may be dysfunctional as hell, and ostensibly led by an angry blowhard, but they can still only operate with the leverage the pilot group gives them.
GMAFB......
APA may be dysfunctional as hell, and ostensibly led by an angry blowhard, but they can still only operate with the leverage the pilot group gives them.
GMAFB......
07-13-2023, 06:08 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2021
Posts: 378
Yep, agree. I’m fine with the gamble, my life is good either way.
I was leaning “yes” with the bullet point summary, but now after seeing the language I’m an easy “no.” Anecdotal, but I’ve had many friends tell me the same, some of them being hardliner “yes” votes a week ago.
I was convinced the TA would have an overwhelming membership pass, now I’m not so sure.
I was leaning “yes” with the bullet point summary, but now after seeing the language I’m an easy “no.” Anecdotal, but I’ve had many friends tell me the same, some of them being hardliner “yes” votes a week ago.
I was convinced the TA would have an overwhelming membership pass, now I’m not so sure.
Yea, they used AIP to hype it, then walked it back in the TA. Why does it take 18 months to change classification date for pay step increases. Switching to DOH should happen at signing, am I reading that wrong, it will take 18 months to switch everyone to DOH for pay?
07-13-2023, 06:35 AM
#29
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,207
I'll probably vote for it.
It ain't great but will we really get better by stalling? Look at United. They shot down the Tumi TA and still don't have a 2nd deal. A year of recalls and union dysfunction ensued after they voted it down. Does it really benefit us to give the company an interest free loan for another 1-2 years? They probably want us to say no.
Then there's the question of the economy. Sure everyone has been saying a major recession is 6 months away for 2 years now but you have to admit that the global economic climate and geopolitics ain't great. Sure we have less international exposure than Delta or United but we have a lot of exposure to price sensitive domestic leisure travelers who would likely go back to flying the ULCCs if there's a downturn. Ask yourself if you think this is going to get better or worse for us in 2 years. Do you think post covid "revenge travel" will still be happening next summer?
Finally do you really think they are going to dump another bucket of money on the table or completely overhaul TTS and work rules? I'm not sure it's worth it to hold out another year+ for 1% more and some minor work rule changes. It's definitely gambling. I don't believe the company will offer a great deal more or that APA will deliver.
I say lock it in while we can. An okay deal is better than no deal and I agree that our leverage has probably peaked. It's not like we're looking at a regional or ULCC contract here. We're pretty close to Delta and better than what United shot down.
It ain't great but will we really get better by stalling? Look at United. They shot down the Tumi TA and still don't have a 2nd deal. A year of recalls and union dysfunction ensued after they voted it down. Does it really benefit us to give the company an interest free loan for another 1-2 years? They probably want us to say no.
Then there's the question of the economy. Sure everyone has been saying a major recession is 6 months away for 2 years now but you have to admit that the global economic climate and geopolitics ain't great. Sure we have less international exposure than Delta or United but we have a lot of exposure to price sensitive domestic leisure travelers who would likely go back to flying the ULCCs if there's a downturn. Ask yourself if you think this is going to get better or worse for us in 2 years. Do you think post covid "revenge travel" will still be happening next summer?
Finally do you really think they are going to dump another bucket of money on the table or completely overhaul TTS and work rules? I'm not sure it's worth it to hold out another year+ for 1% more and some minor work rule changes. It's definitely gambling. I don't believe the company will offer a great deal more or that APA will deliver.
I say lock it in while we can. An okay deal is better than no deal and I agree that our leverage has probably peaked. It's not like we're looking at a regional or ULCC contract here. We're pretty close to Delta and better than what United shot down.
07-13-2023, 06:41 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 226
I'll probably vote for it.
It ain't great but will we really get better by stalling? Look at United. They shot down the Tumi TA and still don't have a 2nd deal. A year of recalls and union dysfunction ensued after they voted it down. Does it really benefit us to give the company an interest free loan for another 1-2 years? They probably want us to say no.
Then there's the question of the economy. Sure everyone has been saying a major recession is 6 months away for 2 year now but you have to admit that the global economic climate and geopolitics ain't great. Sure we have less international exposure than Delta or United but we have a lot of exposure to price sensitive domestic leisure travelers who would likely go back to flying the ULCCs if there's a downturn. Ask yourself if you think this is going to get better or worse for us in 2 years. Do you think post covid "revenge travel" will still be happening next summer?
Finally do you really think they are going to dump another bucket of money on the table or completely overhaul TTS and work rules? I'm not sure it's worth it to hold out another year+ for 1% more and some minor work rule changes. It's definitely gambling. I don't believe the company will offer a great deal more or that APA will deliver.
I say lock it in while we can. An okay deal is better than no deal and I agree that our leverage has probably peaked. It's not like we're looking at a regional or ULCC contract here. We're pretty close to Delta and better than what United shot down.
It ain't great but will we really get better by stalling? Look at United. They shot down the Tumi TA and still don't have a 2nd deal. A year of recalls and union dysfunction ensued after they voted it down. Does it really benefit us to give the company an interest free loan for another 1-2 years? They probably want us to say no.
Then there's the question of the economy. Sure everyone has been saying a major recession is 6 months away for 2 year now but you have to admit that the global economic climate and geopolitics ain't great. Sure we have less international exposure than Delta or United but we have a lot of exposure to price sensitive domestic leisure travelers who would likely go back to flying the ULCCs if there's a downturn. Ask yourself if you think this is going to get better or worse for us in 2 years. Do you think post covid "revenge travel" will still be happening next summer?
Finally do you really think they are going to dump another bucket of money on the table or completely overhaul TTS and work rules? I'm not sure it's worth it to hold out another year+ for 1% more and some minor work rule changes. It's definitely gambling. I don't believe the company will offer a great deal more or that APA will deliver.
I say lock it in while we can. An okay deal is better than no deal and I agree that our leverage has probably peaked. It's not like we're looking at a regional or ULCC contract here. We're pretty close to Delta and better than what United shot down.
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