Originally Posted by CC268

Hey guys,

I've read a lot of threads on here with respect to SWA vs Legacy Airline. However, like anything, these threads are always pretty person specific (where you live, family life, etc). I generally steer away from the forums as I think you get a pretty harsh minority here that seems unhelpful, but on occasion there are some helpful people

Currently at SWA (probationary year), 29 years old, live in AZ and don't plan on leaving. SWA and AA have been my top two choices for the PHX base. I'm not committed to leaving SWA by any means, but I have been "data gathering" on AA and have thought about updating my app at AA again (apparently it is a new app now). So again, this is all theoretical at this point. Had a UA interview invite, but ended up passing on it since I was in training and honestly just didn't want to be a lifelong commuter.

My biggest priority is quality of life, especially as my wife and I start thinking about kids in the next few years. My wife works (and makes more money than me - for now). Flying international isn't a "dream" of mine, I don't care all that much about chasing widebodies, etc. That said, the schedules and sitting widebody reserve at some point in my career is certainly a consideration.

So here is the Pro/Con list I've come up with between the two:

SWA
Pros:
• Best schedule flexibility - I have to admit the ability to trade trips with the company, other pilots, and give away trips is nice
• Highest number of days off compared to the legacies (15 on reserve, 16-19 with a line)
• Efficient schedules - this could be both a pro and a con
• Quality of Life - probably the best when you look at schedule flexibility and number of days off - this was the biggest reason I came to SWA
• Great people - the Captains I have flown with have been fantastic
• Vacation - one week is really 3 weeks with "drop all"
• Sick time - lots of sick time - no one calls you or bothers you when your sick - the chiefs aren't hovering over you like the regionals

Cons:
• Flying 4 legs a day on the 737 is fatiguing - I greatly underestimated this when people said the schedules here are fatiguing. I'm actually more fatigued here than I ever was at the regionals. Now...is it worth it due to the extra days off at home? I think it might be, but time will tell.
• Shoulder flying every trip is, again, fatiguing. Waking up at 2:30 AM for AMs or getting in at 2AM for PMs is tough.
• Red eyes - none yet, but I bet it's coming, and when it does, I would venture to guess the schedules will be even more brutal
• Poor LTD compared to legacies
• The culture of caring for your people (specifically in DAL) seems like it is long gone
• New contract is nowhere in sight (I wouldn't be surprised if it is another year) - I don't want to be too short sighted on this, but it's not a great first impression walking into this
• No paid parking - I thought this was weird, considering my regional paid for parking - quite frankly, this is being nit picky and isn't a big deal
• Training at SWA is horribly inefficient and unorganized - this is behind me, so I guess that doesn't matter anymore lol
• Large tech debt - we use enough paper to put Dunder Mifflin out of business
• Efficient schedules with quick turns means it can be difficult to grab food and take care of yourself lol

American
**This is where I am hoping you guys at AA can help me fill in the blanks...I've compiled the best list of Pros/Cons I can come up with based on my knowledge

Pros:​​​​​​​​​​​​​​
• Equipment variety for a young guy like myself (again...this isn't a huge deal to me, but it would be nice to fly the bus )
• Less legs per day, not so fatiguing - of course this comes at the cost of less efficient schedules and 4-5 day trips (yuck)
• The best seniority movement of any legacy airline
• New AIP looks good (not sure what QOL improvements look like though)
• Long call reserve is an option (don't have this at SWA)
• Newest aircraft fleet - at the cost of high debt

Cons:
• Very little schedule flexibility - you are kind stuck with what you get
• Fewer days off (12 on reserve, ~15 with a line)
• Getting a weekend off will likely take years?
• 4+ day trips
• A week of vacation is just that - a week due to PBS (at SWA a week is really 3 weeks)
• PBS - I don't mind PBS and was actually quite good at it when I was flying for the regionals, but it was very clear that it is only good for the very senior folks
• DEBT - if I went to AA and the economy went to crap (the economy is already on edge), I'd probably be the first on the chopping block
• Red eyes - BOO! Although SWA is probably going to get these at some point anyways
• Expect international widebody flying to take 10 years off your life

I have a lot of friends telling me I need to go to a legacy, considering I have 36 years ahead of me. That said, I worry that the quality of life is going to leave a lot to be desired at AA. Sounds like the money will be there, but at the expense of quality of life. Probably similar schedule to what I had at the regionals when I left (~15 days off as a lineholder, ~12 days off on reserve) - this seems lacking in my opinion. That said, I don't want to be too short sighted about it.

The overall picture I get is basically this - SWA is going to be the best QOL, but at the expense of fatiguing schedules and flying the 737 for the rest of my career. AA is going to be the best career opportunity in terms of equipment, but at the expense of QOL and financial security (in terms of the company that is). AA is the biggest risk vs. reward, with the hope that one day you're sitting on widebody reserve (how long this would take, I have no idea).

Thanks for the feedback.

Originally Posted by 76guy

Couple points to make here, I’m in a similar situation and making the jump to AA with about 15 years to go. For me the reasons are financial, I can’t imagine my QOL being any better than it is right now. You’re absolutely right to be prioritizing QOL, just don’t prioritize it so much that you find yourself looking around in 20 years wondering how you’ll ever retire. The 3 or 4 extra days of work for a few years might be what keeps that second career as a Walmart greeter off the table for you. Nobody is ever going to be as interested in your ability to retire as you will. I sure didn’t see that when I was 29, looking back, I wish I had. Lol

QOL will take a hit for you initially, no doubt there- but the seniority progression is going to help mitigate this. Can you/are you willing to deal with 6-12 months of relative suck for the benefits you stated?

Yes AA carries the largest debt of the legacies, but their pp&e still exceeds debt by about 10 billion and their efforts to reduce the debt appear to be mostly on schedule.

We were told at the interview that WB FO and NB CA were both running about 2 years right now. Check back in 2025 and I’ll let you know if that held true. Coming from a WB International gig I can say with certainty that I’m going to miss it. I doubt I’ll see the opportunity to upgrade on a WB at AA, you almost certainly will.

If SWA is fatiguing to you now, how’s it going to feel when you’re 40? 50? 60? It might just be your normal life by then, or it may run you into the ground in a few years. Everyone’s answer will be different on that, but SWA has a formula that works for them and I’d be very surprised to see them deviate much from this going forward.

I think AA offers more long term than SWA currently does, but today’s blushing bride is tomorrow’s red headed step child. There will be peaks and valleys to ride out at either company. I think AA is getting to a peak right now, while SWA is certainly riding out a valley. Are you willing to take the initial QOL hit for the potential rewards available? Any of these places will be as awesome or as miserable as you want them to be. I’ve got friends at all the legacies, most ULCCs, and in the freight and charter world. Every one of them has stuff they love and stuff they hate about their job in particular. My advice is to just tune out the toxic complainers and enjoy the good you’ve got, SWA or AA will both give you incredible opportunities most people don’t get. It’s a great problem to have, and a great time to be a pilot… for now. The pendulum will swing back on us at some point. Just my .02.

Originally Posted by CC268

I think the toughest thing is deciding if it’s worth all the crap just to have good quality of life and fly wide bodies the last 10-15 years of your career? Is it worth all that when you’ve missed your kids growing up because you were flying NB at AA with 15 days off a month? I honestly can’t say because I don’t know your guys’ work rules and schedules, but reading around some of the threads on here seems to show that NB schedules at AA aren’t very good?

Originally Posted by CC268

Thanks for the reply - best reply I've seen on this thread so far. Great points. I agree with everything you've said - doesn't make the decision any easier though haha! I just hate commuting (although I'm commuting for SWA right now and I'm not sure how long it will take me to get into PHX anyways).

Anyways...thanks for the feedback.

Originally Posted by Fly76

WB can be held FO in 3-5 years depending on base, he’ll have manyyy years if he’d like. He will also have 15+ years as a WB CA. 15 days off home based vs 17-18 off at SWA commuting is probably the same amount of time at home maybe even less at SWA by commuting.

Originally Posted by Fly76

you’ll get PHX 1st or 2nd vacancy bid.

Originally Posted by CC268

I won’t be commuting for SWA long. I’ll get Phoenix soon. So the 17-19 off at SWA is nice to be honest

Originally Posted by Fly76

that makes a difference then. But off peak you’ll get 16-17 off as a line holder. Summer more like 14-15. Not sure how senior folks get.

so comes down to: do you want couple extra days off a month but be on 737 for 30+ years, or couple less days off but more opportunities plus faster uograde opportunities or just hang on the WB FO in a few years.

Guess it’s up to you. Me personally I’d rather loose 2-3 days off a month but work not as hard vs 2-3 extra off but do the type of flying SWA does.

pull out a pen and paper write down pros and cons. See what has you leaning more towards and go with that 🤷 good luck with your decision. You’re in a good spot no matter which.

Originally Posted by CC268

Yea I totally agree and the pros/cons list has been done (a lot of which is in my original post in a more informal way).

Money isn’t the priority since my wife works - QOL is. As of now I’m leaning SWA if I want pure QOL. AA if I want less QOL with more career opportunity. Wide body would mean commuting to DFW or LAX…so is it really that good of a gig? I’m not sure but I appreciate the feedback. It is certainly helpful and there are a lot of things to consider. Either way…at the end of day I’m happy with either choice tbh.

Originally Posted by PRS Guitars

There are 2 types of QOL. QOL that gets you home more and QOL while working. At SWA you might work a day or 2 less, but you will likely work a lot harder while at work to get those days off. By the way, at AA we do have some dense trips that allow for more time off, just not as many. I try to find a balance between those, and it shifts based on family priorities.