How was picketing? State of negotiations?
05-09-2023, 09:05 PM
#92
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Joined APC: Jul 2021
Posts: 378
Horrible may be an exaggeration, but if they are allowed to ignore seniority to match reserve availability with paring length it will increase reserve efficiency.
Sounds like an honest give, but it could crush premium pay assignments, it could also rebalance historical demand of reserve and lower pilot job count. It can effect red/redder/green trip trading in TTS.
Right now pilots can get premium because reserves are burned inefficiently, they can get more trades approved because company has to staff at higher levels knowing they use reserves inefficiently and computer only sees block hours and total reserves not knowing about inefficient usage. Right now there could even be WB CA and FO who have their seat due to inefficient reserve use. Then there is the worse schedule for the 1,000s of reserve pilots who themselves are flown harder on reserve and get less premium on a DFP, due to being too wiped out, or not available.
AA has clearly ran models scaled from efficient RJ bucket usage and sees a win for them.
More pilots at AA flying only their line award at straight time, more reserves flying all of their reserve days getting leveled, and fewer overall pilots to cover same amount block hours are all things paying for the Delta raise.
It’s a bonafide quid pro quo concession. It will save AA way more than they’ll ever admit to. So it becomes difficult to capture full value for the giveaway and only works because everyone voted yes when they finished reading section 3.
Sounds like an honest give, but it could crush premium pay assignments, it could also rebalance historical demand of reserve and lower pilot job count. It can effect red/redder/green trip trading in TTS.
Right now pilots can get premium because reserves are burned inefficiently, they can get more trades approved because company has to staff at higher levels knowing they use reserves inefficiently and computer only sees block hours and total reserves not knowing about inefficient usage. Right now there could even be WB CA and FO who have their seat due to inefficient reserve use. Then there is the worse schedule for the 1,000s of reserve pilots who themselves are flown harder on reserve and get less premium on a DFP, due to being too wiped out, or not available.
AA has clearly ran models scaled from efficient RJ bucket usage and sees a win for them.
More pilots at AA flying only their line award at straight time, more reserves flying all of their reserve days getting leveled, and fewer overall pilots to cover same amount block hours are all things paying for the Delta raise.
It’s a bonafide quid pro quo concession. It will save AA way more than they’ll ever admit to. So it becomes difficult to capture full value for the giveaway and only works because everyone voted yes when they finished reading section 3.
Last edited by OpieTaylor; 05-09-2023 at 09:24 PM.
05-10-2023, 08:14 AM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,318
Horrible may be an exaggeration, but if they are allowed to ignore seniority to match reserve availability with paring length it will increase reserve efficiency.
Sounds like an honest give, but it could crush premium pay assignments, it could also rebalance historical demand of reserve and lower pilot job count. It can effect red/redder/green trip trading in TTS.
Right now pilots can get premium because reserves are burned inefficiently, they can get more trades approved because company has to staff at higher levels knowing they use reserves inefficiently and computer only sees block hours and total reserves not knowing about inefficient usage. Right now there could even be WB CA and FO who have their seat due to inefficient reserve use. Then there is the worse schedule for the 1,000s of reserve pilots who themselves are flown harder on reserve and get less premium on a DFP, due to being too wiped out, or not available.
AA has clearly ran models scaled from efficient RJ bucket usage and sees a win for them.
More pilots at AA flying only their line award at straight time, more reserves flying all of their reserve days getting leveled, and fewer overall pilots to cover same amount block hours are all things paying for the Delta raise.
It’s a bonafide quid pro quo concession. It will save AA way more than they’ll ever admit to. So it becomes difficult to capture full value for the giveaway and only works because everyone voted yes when they finished reading section 3.
Sounds like an honest give, but it could crush premium pay assignments, it could also rebalance historical demand of reserve and lower pilot job count. It can effect red/redder/green trip trading in TTS.
Right now pilots can get premium because reserves are burned inefficiently, they can get more trades approved because company has to staff at higher levels knowing they use reserves inefficiently and computer only sees block hours and total reserves not knowing about inefficient usage. Right now there could even be WB CA and FO who have their seat due to inefficient reserve use. Then there is the worse schedule for the 1,000s of reserve pilots who themselves are flown harder on reserve and get less premium on a DFP, due to being too wiped out, or not available.
AA has clearly ran models scaled from efficient RJ bucket usage and sees a win for them.
More pilots at AA flying only their line award at straight time, more reserves flying all of their reserve days getting leveled, and fewer overall pilots to cover same amount block hours are all things paying for the Delta raise.
It’s a bonafide quid pro quo concession. It will save AA way more than they’ll ever admit to. So it becomes difficult to capture full value for the giveaway and only works because everyone voted yes when they finished reading section 3.
I see your point with the bucket system. I agree that it seems that it will increase SC utilization, but I also think you’re giving way too much credit with respect to its effect on jobs needed, trading etc. Speaking of reserve, you’re also leaving out the “inefficiencies” being gained to our benefit. DFP trading. Elimination of movable days. Being flown into a DFP by even a minute will pay 5:15 above guarantee which also requires a restoration a DFP in current month. 14 hour LC outside of DOTC. etc.
That’s just the reserve section. Then you have the rest of section 15. Improvement to holiday pay and increase in days to 9. Changing RO completely. Reassignment window of 4 hours or released with pay, and can double dip (Delta’s is 6 hours?). Self-repair option. Premium pay for reassignment flying, override for reserves goes above guarantee. Sit rig for scheduled or actual (how many times did that one bite you?). Trips scheduled to end between 0000-01:59 will pay an extra 2 hours. The list goes on.
My point is that if we all just fixate on the one part of one section of the contract that matters to us most and ignore the rest, we’ll never get anywhere. The big fight will be pay and retro it appears. I can’t imagine any of us would accept anything less than what Delta got. So if the company digs their heels in on retro, that’ll be the hold up. Not the change to SC reserve bucket system’s order in which trips are assigned.
Last edited by El Peso; 05-10-2023 at 08:37 AM.
05-10-2023, 08:56 AM
#94
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Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,490
A lot of that is simply "better than what we have now" and not "industry leading".
In any case, everyone is going to focus on what's important to them. I, for one, was really hoping for 18 hour long call like what Delta got. As a permanent commuter, I find that huge. Going from 12 to 14 hours "most of the time" doesn't really help me. And, while that's not the be-all-end-all for me, it sticks out as one of those things that's "not quite there". And there are several of them.
In any case, everyone is going to focus on what's important to them. I, for one, was really hoping for 18 hour long call like what Delta got. As a permanent commuter, I find that huge. Going from 12 to 14 hours "most of the time" doesn't really help me. And, while that's not the be-all-end-all for me, it sticks out as one of those things that's "not quite there". And there are several of them.
05-10-2023, 09:14 AM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2021
Posts: 378
I think the rates will be figured out, probably just details like if a 737CA bids 320CA and is held back what happens. Do they get 319/320 pay or 321Neo/XLR pay. I don’t they are fighting over value of final rates, possibility just implications.
Back pay is probably a fight, Robert likely knows if he throws say 75% of back pay out there how many would retire and get nothing, how many would vote yes because 25% of their share is not much too loose and the new rates will more than make up.
It’s very safe to say his heels are dug in on Delta back pay 100%, plus retirees, plus 2023 retro so a hypothetical no is a total freebie that would be too much to risk, because the the group could vote no for very trivial items if they know all else is secured. He has no reason not to put a huge price to pay on a no vote.
People will say they’ll vote no if it’s not Delta 100%, people will actually vote no if they read they are completely protected against the cost of a no vote.
It appeared on these forms even Delta tried to hold back 2023 retro as a price for a no vote. When the wind started blowing the other way safely it found it’s way in their deal.
Scott’s biggest mistake was not having a price for a no vote to split the group, and look what happened.
Back pay is probably a fight, Robert likely knows if he throws say 75% of back pay out there how many would retire and get nothing, how many would vote yes because 25% of their share is not much too loose and the new rates will more than make up.
It’s very safe to say his heels are dug in on Delta back pay 100%, plus retirees, plus 2023 retro so a hypothetical no is a total freebie that would be too much to risk, because the the group could vote no for very trivial items if they know all else is secured. He has no reason not to put a huge price to pay on a no vote.
People will say they’ll vote no if it’s not Delta 100%, people will actually vote no if they read they are completely protected against the cost of a no vote.
It appeared on these forms even Delta tried to hold back 2023 retro as a price for a no vote. When the wind started blowing the other way safely it found it’s way in their deal.
Scott’s biggest mistake was not having a price for a no vote to split the group, and look what happened.
Last edited by OpieTaylor; 05-10-2023 at 09:24 AM.
05-10-2023, 09:25 AM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 797
I think the rates will be figured out, probably just details like if a 737CA bids 320CA and is held back what happens. Do they get 319/320 pay or 321Neo/XLR pay. I don’t they are fighting over value of final rates, possibility just implications.
Back pay is probably a fight, Robert likely knows if he throws say 75% of back pay out there how many would retire and get nothing, how many would vote yes because 25% of their share is not much too loose and the new rates will more than make up.
It’s very safe to say his heels are dug in on Delta back pay 100%, plus retirees, plus 2023 retro so a hypothetical no is a total freebie that would be too much to risk, because the the group could vote no for very trivial items if they know all else is secured. He has no reason not to put a huge price to pay on a no vote.
People will say they’ll vote no if it’s not Delta 100%, people will actually vote no if they read they are completely protected against the cost of a no vote.
It appeared on these forms even Delta tried to hold back 2023 retro as a price for a no vote. When the wind started blowing the other way safely it found its way in their deal.
Back pay is probably a fight, Robert likely knows if he throws say 75% of back pay out there how many would retire and get nothing, how many would vote yes because 25% of their share is not much too loose and the new rates will more than make up.
It’s very safe to say his heels are dug in on Delta back pay 100%, plus retirees, plus 2023 retro so a hypothetical no is a total freebie that would be too much to risk, because the the group could vote no for very trivial items if they know all else is secured. He has no reason not to put a huge price to pay on a no vote.
People will say they’ll vote no if it’s not Delta 100%, people will actually vote no if they read they are completely protected against the cost of a no vote.
It appeared on these forms even Delta tried to hold back 2023 retro as a price for a no vote. When the wind started blowing the other way safely it found its way in their deal.
05-10-2023, 09:33 AM
#97
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Joined APC: Oct 2022
Posts: 130
The proposal here is now basing groups by days available vs hours already worked. You maintain seniority in the group you're in. Only difference is the reason why you're losing out on a trip changes.
I wouldn't call it a concession, but probably isn't a gain for pilots either. My wish would be scheduling creates a list of known trips that need covering and knows that flying would hit your group, then it gets assigned by seniority. If you still want to pass because they don't need everyone in your group and you're senior, you can. If you wanted Trip A, you get it.
05-10-2023, 09:50 AM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,318
A lot of that is simply "better than what we have now" and not "industry leading".
In any case, everyone is going to focus on what's important to them. I, for one, was really hoping for 18 hour long call like what Delta got. As a permanent commuter, I find that huge. Going from 12 to 14 hours "most of the time" doesn't really help me. And, while that's not the be-all-end-all for me, it sticks out as one of those things that's "not quite there". And there are several of them.
In any case, everyone is going to focus on what's important to them. I, for one, was really hoping for 18 hour long call like what Delta got. As a permanent commuter, I find that huge. Going from 12 to 14 hours "most of the time" doesn't really help me. And, while that's not the be-all-end-all for me, it sticks out as one of those things that's "not quite there". And there are several of them.
Only consider that industry leading does not mean that you will sit down with our contract and everyone else’s in the industry, compare them line by line, and have ours win out in every instant. If that’s what you’re waiting for, you’ll be waiting forever. There will be sections where we’re up, and sections where we’re down. The question is are there more ups than downs in the end, and by an acceptable amount to be considered industry leading? Also, some ups have a significantly higher dollar value than the downs, and vice versa. There’s a lot yet to be finalized and we don’t have the full picture (total contract value). If we were to vote right now based on what we know I’d obviously be a NO, but there are huge sections still in play (vacation, sick, pay, bonus, PS).
05-10-2023, 10:03 AM
#99
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Joined APC: Jul 2021
Posts: 378
They already ignore seniority in how it currently work with the buckets/groups being based off hours already worked. You lose out on trips you may want to have flown because you worked 40 hours already while a person junior to you has only worked 20 hours so that trip went to them being in a lower group.
The proposal here is now basing groups by days available vs hours already worked. You maintain seniority in the group you're in. Only difference is the reason why you're losing out on a trip changes.
I wouldn't call it a concession, but probably isn't a gain for pilots either. My wish would be scheduling creates a list of known trips that need covering and knows that flying would hit your group, then it gets assigned by seniority. If you still want to pass because they don't need everyone in your group and you're senior, you can. If you wanted Trip A, you get it.
The proposal here is now basing groups by days available vs hours already worked. You maintain seniority in the group you're in. Only difference is the reason why you're losing out on a trip changes.
I wouldn't call it a concession, but probably isn't a gain for pilots either. My wish would be scheduling creates a list of known trips that need covering and knows that flying would hit your group, then it gets assigned by seniority. If you still want to pass because they don't need everyone in your group and you're senior, you can. If you wanted Trip A, you get it.
If you have 1day left and a 1 day pops up you decline and they grab the guy with 4days left. After that a 4 day pops up and they already used the guy with 4 days and have to run outside DOTC and pay for it.
New rules 1day pops up and you have 1 day it’s goes to you now, and the 4day guy flys the 4 day that would have went premium.
Your scenario doesn’t include anyone getting paid. It’s somewhat of a unique position to want to fly for free and not be allowed to due to reserve leveling. I am not sure it’s a valid point to offset someone wanting to stay at home and get paid while a junior reserve goes flys, and a 3rd pilot is needed for premium.
Not calling it a concession is like saying if they create airport reserve schedules and you become senior in that bidding status then it’s not a concession because you were junior at SCR and now senior at airport reserve.
Last edited by OpieTaylor; 05-10-2023 at 10:15 AM.
05-10-2023, 10:33 AM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2022
Posts: 130
I guess I approached it from you don’t want to fly on reserve since you don’t get paid for it.
If you have 1day left and a 1 day pops up you decline and they grab the guy with 4days left. After that a 4 day pops up and they already used the guy with 4 days and have to run outside DOTC and pay for it.
New rules 1day pops up and you have 1 day it’s goes to you now, and the 4day guy flys the 4 day that would have went premium.
Your scenario doesn’t include anyone getting paid. It’s somewhat of a unique position to want to fly for free and not be allowed to due to reserve leveling. I am not sure it’s a valid point to offset someone wanting to stay at home and get paid while a junior reserve goes flys, and a 3rd pilot is needed for premium.
Not calling it a concession is like saying if they create airport reserve schedules and you become senior in that bidding status then it’s not a concession because you were junior at SCR and now senior at airport reserve.
If you have 1day left and a 1 day pops up you decline and they grab the guy with 4days left. After that a 4 day pops up and they already used the guy with 4 days and have to run outside DOTC and pay for it.
New rules 1day pops up and you have 1 day it’s goes to you now, and the 4day guy flys the 4 day that would have went premium.
Your scenario doesn’t include anyone getting paid. It’s somewhat of a unique position to want to fly for free and not be allowed to due to reserve leveling. I am not sure it’s a valid point to offset someone wanting to stay at home and get paid while a junior reserve goes flys, and a 3rd pilot is needed for premium.
Not calling it a concession is like saying if they create airport reserve schedules and you become senior in that bidding status then it’s not a concession because you were junior at SCR and now senior at airport reserve.
I played the pick trips that got me back after 9:45 PM to make me useless on my last day game. That will go away with the new rules which definitely sucks.
I am not saying I like the new proposed process, but current system doesn't honor seniority either.
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