LEANING to leave AA for DAL
07-11-2024, 06:14 PM
#81
Moderator
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,812
FWIW, if you have the WB itch, DL WB FO has been holding pretty consistently in the low 70’s% overall seniority. Supposedly, DL is going to grow their own-mental WB fleet over the next few years, which may drop that somewhat, but there’s no guarantee of that actually happening. Especially if world events overtake best laid plans.
So the question is how long would it take you to rise to low 70’s% seniority at DL? I would venture to guess considerably longer than the time to hold WB at AA already 18 months in. DL retires about 500/year until 2030ish. Then it drops to ~400ish/year. And there is no talk/projection we will hire more than about 1000 annually.
Unless you are just dead set on driving to work in the mountain west, I don’t know I’d recommend leaving AA. It’s just too much seniority to give up. Good luck.
So the question is how long would it take you to rise to low 70’s% seniority at DL? I would venture to guess considerably longer than the time to hold WB at AA already 18 months in. DL retires about 500/year until 2030ish. Then it drops to ~400ish/year. And there is no talk/projection we will hire more than about 1000 annually.
Unless you are just dead set on driving to work in the mountain west, I don’t know I’d recommend leaving AA. It’s just too much seniority to give up. Good luck.
07-11-2024, 06:45 PM
#82
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2023
Posts: 49
Do you want WB more or to be able to visit your family more?
I went AA to DL after a whole lot of consternation and it was the right decision for me. After doing the research on DAL at LAX vs AA at LAX, for whatever reason, DAL is a lot more junior at LAX than AA, so I was able to rise far more rapidly because I went to DAL.
Had I stayed at AA, it would have taken me years to be able to hold lines that start of of SNA. I can hold them now if I was on the 75. Been at DAL less than a year. We still plan to hire 1000/yr indefinitely.
I went AA to DL after a whole lot of consternation and it was the right decision for me. After doing the research on DAL at LAX vs AA at LAX, for whatever reason, DAL is a lot more junior at LAX than AA, so I was able to rise far more rapidly because I went to DAL.
Had I stayed at AA, it would have taken me years to be able to hold lines that start of of SNA. I can hold them now if I was on the 75. Been at DAL less than a year. We still plan to hire 1000/yr indefinitely.
07-12-2024, 05:36 AM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 2,315
ScrandyBob, the calculus on this has changed a little in the last year. Certainly apply to DAL but in the mean time, move to one of those places (SLC or SEA) if you're really wanting DAL. SAN was on your list, you could move there and fly some local some LAX. Or move to BOI or wherever. SAN makes the most sense because either AA or DAL could work and you always have LAX up the road....plus it's a great area.
I know you'll hear a drumbeat of "don't commute" but I recommend leaving DFW and commuting at AA while you wait. I tried living in DFW and pretty quickly realized I'd way rather commute from where I grew up and raised my kids (Colorado) than live in DFW. That said, I'll eventually part time a different base. And I'm not recommending commuting for your entire career, but right now it might make sense and bring some clarity to your choice. Yes, on balance it's better to not commute, but I've flown with quite a few non commuters who really dislike where they live but gut it out because that's what your "supposed" to do. You have choices.
I know you'll hear a drumbeat of "don't commute" but I recommend leaving DFW and commuting at AA while you wait. I tried living in DFW and pretty quickly realized I'd way rather commute from where I grew up and raised my kids (Colorado) than live in DFW. That said, I'll eventually part time a different base. And I'm not recommending commuting for your entire career, but right now it might make sense and bring some clarity to your choice. Yes, on balance it's better to not commute, but I've flown with quite a few non commuters who really dislike where they live but gut it out because that's what your "supposed" to do. You have choices.
07-12-2024, 08:10 AM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 259
Hey guys, huge thread revival I know but the Delta v American thread just seems like a huge peeing match and I'm not trying to argue over which airline is better managed, financials, days off, blah blah blah. Just looking for advice since this came up when I googled my question.
Currently at AA coming up on 1.5 year seniority, 30 years old, but spitballing the idea of going to Delta. The decision mainly comes from wanting to live on the west coast/inter-western mountain region since I have family ties spread throughout the region in SLC, SAN, SEA, and BOI. I have a big spread out family and then there's me at AA currently living in DFW... and as you all know, two of those cities are Delta bases.
I have enjoyed my time here at AA despite the contrary popular complaints on here, as well as other internet outhouses, and I definitely would love to stay. But I struggle here with the strength of the PHX & LAX bases in comparison to OAL and the lack of decently strong western presence/push at AA that aligns with my long-term goals (although the recent 737 addition to PHX made me smile).
It's a helluva lot of seniority and job security to give up but as myself, my folks and my siblings get older, I'm realizing that I need to be a lot closer and not missing so many family gatherings. With the added selfish perk that I enjoy the outdoors that the western region provides, but being able to drive to see family is huge. Not too feasible from the massive state of Texas.
TL;DR: I guess what I'm really asking is, is the cratering of seniority to get DL in SLC/SEA worth it for the less than ideal, but keeping the holy seniority at AA, PHX move? WWJD?
PS: Yes, I realize I'm dumb and asking the internet for major life/career advice but this is cheaper than a therapist/counselor Wink
Currently at AA coming up on 1.5 year seniority, 30 years old, but spitballing the idea of going to Delta. The decision mainly comes from wanting to live on the west coast/inter-western mountain region since I have family ties spread throughout the region in SLC, SAN, SEA, and BOI. I have a big spread out family and then there's me at AA currently living in DFW... and as you all know, two of those cities are Delta bases.
I have enjoyed my time here at AA despite the contrary popular complaints on here, as well as other internet outhouses, and I definitely would love to stay. But I struggle here with the strength of the PHX & LAX bases in comparison to OAL and the lack of decently strong western presence/push at AA that aligns with my long-term goals (although the recent 737 addition to PHX made me smile).
It's a helluva lot of seniority and job security to give up but as myself, my folks and my siblings get older, I'm realizing that I need to be a lot closer and not missing so many family gatherings. With the added selfish perk that I enjoy the outdoors that the western region provides, but being able to drive to see family is huge. Not too feasible from the massive state of Texas.
TL;DR: I guess what I'm really asking is, is the cratering of seniority to get DL in SLC/SEA worth it for the less than ideal, but keeping the holy seniority at AA, PHX move? WWJD?
PS: Yes, I realize I'm dumb and asking the internet for major life/career advice but this is cheaper than a therapist/counselor Wink
07-12-2024, 08:40 AM
#85
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,154
So you're leaning toward Delta but it sounds like you want us to talk you out of it?
1.5 years isn't that much seniority when you're 30 years old. Don't let that stop you.
They have hired 30% of their seniority list post Covid and a lot of them are young. Movement over there will be very slow. We have more retirements.
I think they will always be the most profitable of the big three and lest likely to furlough.
The Delta guys seem generally happy and they make good money well beyond the pay rates. Most of my buddies over there blow me away but I try to work as little as possible. Most of their complaints are definitely first world problems.
If you want to live in SLC or the NW commuting to PHX or LAX would be dumb when they have bases in SLC and SEA. I don't see us getting any NW bases.
You probably wouldn't get SLC or SEA in the initial bid. It would suck to have to commute to LGA but you could transfer out pretty quick. God forbid you get ATL or DTW 717 with a seat lock and have to commute there and can't transfer bases. Their seat locks are heinous. Is your last 4 social high?
SLC is just 320, 220 and 737 for now. No international. International in SEA is really senior.
We aren't going to grow LAX any time soon. PHX seems pretty stagnant. If you stay DFW seems like it would be a good choice to commute to from SLC or Boise.
You have a lot more opportunities to fly int'l over there if that's what you want. They have a large order book of WBs. We do not. I think we will always be a domestic airline with some international flights. Their revenue structure is opposite of ours where they make their money on int'l and domestic premium and lose money on domestic coach.
You know the culture here. Would you fit in at Delta? They seem a lot less laid back. Seems to be run like the military over there. Everyone seems to take themselves pretty seriously and their job is their whole identity for many.
Unless you already have a CJO over there this discussion is probably moo.
Either way you're going to have a fine career. I can't even imagine getting hired at a legacy at 28 in my day. Good luck with your choice.
1.5 years isn't that much seniority when you're 30 years old. Don't let that stop you.
They have hired 30% of their seniority list post Covid and a lot of them are young. Movement over there will be very slow. We have more retirements.
I think they will always be the most profitable of the big three and lest likely to furlough.
The Delta guys seem generally happy and they make good money well beyond the pay rates. Most of my buddies over there blow me away but I try to work as little as possible. Most of their complaints are definitely first world problems.
If you want to live in SLC or the NW commuting to PHX or LAX would be dumb when they have bases in SLC and SEA. I don't see us getting any NW bases.
You probably wouldn't get SLC or SEA in the initial bid. It would suck to have to commute to LGA but you could transfer out pretty quick. God forbid you get ATL or DTW 717 with a seat lock and have to commute there and can't transfer bases. Their seat locks are heinous. Is your last 4 social high?
SLC is just 320, 220 and 737 for now. No international. International in SEA is really senior.
We aren't going to grow LAX any time soon. PHX seems pretty stagnant. If you stay DFW seems like it would be a good choice to commute to from SLC or Boise.
You have a lot more opportunities to fly int'l over there if that's what you want. They have a large order book of WBs. We do not. I think we will always be a domestic airline with some international flights. Their revenue structure is opposite of ours where they make their money on int'l and domestic premium and lose money on domestic coach.
You know the culture here. Would you fit in at Delta? They seem a lot less laid back. Seems to be run like the military over there. Everyone seems to take themselves pretty seriously and their job is their whole identity for many.
Unless you already have a CJO over there this discussion is probably moo.
Either way you're going to have a fine career. I can't even imagine getting hired at a legacy at 28 in my day. Good luck with your choice.
Last edited by Margaritaville; 07-12-2024 at 08:54 AM.
07-12-2024, 08:51 AM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,902
FWIW, if you have the WB itch, DL WB FO has been holding pretty consistently in the low 70’s% overall seniority. Supposedly, DL is going to grow their own-mental WB fleet over the next few years, which may drop that somewhat, but there’s no guarantee of that actually happening. Especially if world events overtake best laid plans.
So the question is how long would it take you to rise to low 70’s% seniority at DL? I would venture to guess considerably longer than the time to hold WB at AA already 18 months in. DL retires about 500/year until 2030ish. Then it drops to ~400ish/year. And there is no talk/projection we will hire more than about 1000 annually.
Unless you are just dead set on driving to work in the mountain west, I don’t know I’d recommend leaving AA. It’s just too much seniority to give up. Good luck.
So the question is how long would it take you to rise to low 70’s% seniority at DL? I would venture to guess considerably longer than the time to hold WB at AA already 18 months in. DL retires about 500/year until 2030ish. Then it drops to ~400ish/year. And there is no talk/projection we will hire more than about 1000 annually.
Unless you are just dead set on driving to work in the mountain west, I don’t know I’d recommend leaving AA. It’s just too much seniority to give up. Good luck.
The unprecidented hiring since 2022, where people can sharpshoot the major they want to go to is so extremely rare in this industry, and there was simply no way it was going to last. DAL has hired a majority of it's pilots since 2014, and thousands in the last few years, many of whom are on the young side of the demographgic.
Even with just "normal" hiring, you will be forever on the back side of a hiring curve, where you might sit in DTW on the 717 right seat for years.
Yea, it's annoying to see other people who got to pick and choose, and really didn't lose anything for it, but that's just timing, and something you'll have to get used to in this business.
07-12-2024, 11:17 AM
#87
New Hire
Joined APC: Jul 2024
Posts: 3
More solid points to consider, thanks guys again for keeping the replies civil. I see how some other threads on here go...
The time to make this decision was definitely 1.5 years ago when I had offers from all 3 and yet AA was the first to stick me in a class and I drank the indoc koolaid and ignored the pros of the other 2. Not that I regret that, like I said I have enjoyed AA and will be just as happy during my career here as anywhere else.
Finishing up my application at Delta and seeing if I even get a nibble before diving too hard into a spiral over this, since right now it's all speculation and wishful thinking of how perfect life could be. So the reality check is nice.
The time to make this decision was definitely 1.5 years ago when I had offers from all 3 and yet AA was the first to stick me in a class and I drank the indoc koolaid and ignored the pros of the other 2. Not that I regret that, like I said I have enjoyed AA and will be just as happy during my career here as anywhere else.
Finishing up my application at Delta and seeing if I even get a nibble before diving too hard into a spiral over this, since right now it's all speculation and wishful thinking of how perfect life could be. So the reality check is nice.
07-12-2024, 11:36 AM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,371
Agree with my collegue here. The time to make this move was 1.5 to 2 years ago, at the latest.
The unprecidented hiring since 2022, where people can sharpshoot the major they want to go to is so extremely rare in this industry, and there was simply no way it was going to last. DAL has hired a majority of it's pilots since 2014, and thousands in the last few years, many of whom are on the young side of the demographgic.
Even with just "normal" hiring, you will be forever on the back side of a hiring curve, where you might sit in DTW on the 717 right seat for years.
Yea, it's annoying to see other people who got to pick and choose, and really didn't lose anything for it, but that's just timing, and something you'll have to get used to in this business.
The unprecidented hiring since 2022, where people can sharpshoot the major they want to go to is so extremely rare in this industry, and there was simply no way it was going to last. DAL has hired a majority of it's pilots since 2014, and thousands in the last few years, many of whom are on the young side of the demographgic.
Even with just "normal" hiring, you will be forever on the back side of a hiring curve, where you might sit in DTW on the 717 right seat for years.
Yea, it's annoying to see other people who got to pick and choose, and really didn't lose anything for it, but that's just timing, and something you'll have to get used to in this business.
Delta is retiring 500 a yr and will hire about 1,000. There will be movement, but not as big as 2022-2023.
07-12-2024, 12:33 PM
#90
Can’t find crew pickup
Joined APC: Jun 2021
Posts: 2,235
I would say this is true among many of the pre-merger folks, especially the older of that generation of pilots. But almost 70% of the seniority list has been hired since 2014. That kind of climate is rapidly changing. Although there will always be the one offs.
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